285 hp doesn't cut it anymore...

Hello!

I posted this thread on theformulasource.com as well, but sadly there isn't much action going on there nowadays..


Let me first start off by saying that I spent the beginning of my adult life as a living and breathing commercial for Durex condoms, I lived a life filled with drug abuse and rehabs and so on. I have been in love with f-bodys since I saw my first one back in -98, but it wasn't until december -14 that I could realize my dream and by my dream car. A Formula of course. ;)


What I'm trying to say is that I have very limited experience of working on cars in general, and even though I've been free from drugs for 4,5 years now and work in a large mine (I'm a licensed welder/mechanic) I still don't know much about cars! Sure I know the basics, the engine needs fuel and so on, but not much more than that. Okay, maybe a little more, but I would definitely classify myself as a noob.


Yesterday I spoke with a childhood friend for one hour who shares the love of f-bodys with me, and I told him that I had a possible good deal on a supercharger that had previously been on an LT1 'Vette. I was really stoked but he wasn't, he said I should go for headers, cam and a converter. I didn't take long to convince, so now it's time to order some parts.. I would love to throw in some 1.6 RR's aswell. Because when I think about it, I would rather have a 350-400 whp N/A car. There is something really nasty about that.. ;)


Anyways, mostly of this would be done during our 7 month long winter here in Sweden, so it feels like I don't have to feel much pressure or stress and could learn a lot during the ride. Or am I totally wrong? I really wanna learn, and these cars sadly doesn't cost anything anymore.. I feel like my Formie would be the perfect trial and error car. :) It's already paid in full and hardly cost anything to own. Last year I drove it for about 160 miles or so before i put it back in the garage. I really like this car, but there is so much I would like to do with it to really be able to love it! I would gladly keep it for the rest of my life if I got to give my personal touch to it. Paint it black, make it handle like a newer car and so on. And of course, an engine to match!



So.. if you're still reading this wall of text I would politely like ask for a few recipies.. do you have any tips for me?


I know nothing about cams, but I would like it to be wild enough to need a remap but still be nice enough to cruise in (my buddy talked about mild cams that didn't need a remap, but since I'm going with a bunch of other stuff I think it would be neccesary. Like headers, RR's, CAI and so on).


I spend most of my time on f-fody forums, and the general concensus seem to be that 1.6 RR's are exacly what these engine needs, so which ones should I focus/read up on?

And headers.. what a jungle.. a part of me would like to have smoglegal Pacesetters but no seller on eBay seem to be able to send them to Sweden. So maybe I should go with the off road ones instead?




I know folks, I'm probably the biggest noob you've seen on this forum for years, but I need to start somewhere! ;)

Hoping for lots of answers!
Best regards.
/Erik

Depends on your end goal

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You could probably get headers and any exhaust you want threw summit racing. As far as a cam goes I really like my custom grind cam from lloyd elliot, and the price is very reasonable. You can get rockers, cam, and valve springs (and lifters if you need to replace yours) through lloyd if you go that route. You will also need to get pushrods and pushrod measurement tools. 350rwhp can be done with only bolt ons and a cam. Getting a whole lot more then that will take ported heads (can also be gotten threw lloyd)... you will have to tune for a cam or you risk damage to the rings and eventually main/rod bearings.

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Originally Posted by Camaro96

Depends on your end goal

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I quote what I wrote in my wall of text; "Because when I think about it, I would rather have a 350-400 whp N/A car. There is something really nasty about that.." - so somewhere around 375 would make it a fun weekend warrior to me! Because that's what my car is all about, driving hard (well.. as hard as a stock LT1 allows you to drive) and putting away wet after the weekends.

Anyway, my first mod will be headers, but everybody has different opinions on different sites. Some people have only good things to say about so called eBay-headers, any thoughts on those? Are they smog legal? I guess I don't have to mention I'm talking about LT's.

If anyone knows about a good header company that ships to Sweden, please let me know!

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Originally Posted by englundjd

You could probably get headers and any exhaust you want threw summit racing. As far as a cam goes I really like my custom grind cam from lloyd elliot, and the price is very reasonable. You can get rockers, cam, and valve springs (and lifters if you need to replace yours) through lloyd if you go that route. You will also need to get pushrods and pushrod measurement tools. 350rwhp can be done with only bolt ons and a cam. Getting a whole lot more then that will take ported heads (can also be gotten threw lloyd)... you will have to tune for a cam or you risk damage to the rings and eventually main/rod bearings.

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To bad it costs an arm and a leg to ship to Sweden.. oh well, I guess I just have to suck it up. Gonna check it out tomorrow again, I have been to their webpage numerous times but it's a jungle and I often give up hoping a pair of headers will fall down on my lap from the sky lol!

Thanks for the Lloyd Elliot tip, I've only heard good things about his stuff. So if I order a cam from him he can make it a package and also send matching RR's and springs and so on? That sounds exactly what I would need!

Thank you for the help brother!

have you looked at nitrous?

or forced induction?

Has @englundjd stated would be a good way to go.

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Originally Posted by ErikFormula

To bad it costs an arm and a leg to ship to Sweden.. oh well, I guess I just have to suck it up. Gonna check it out tomorrow again, I have been to their webpage numerous times but it's a jungle and I often give up hoping a pair of headers will fall down on my lap from the sky lol!

Thanks for the Lloyd Elliot tip, I've only heard good things about his stuff. So if I order a cam from him he can make it a package and also send matching RR's and springs and so on? That sounds exactly what I would need!

Thank you for the help brother!

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Yes lloyd will send it as a package. I can get you some links to headers if I get home in time

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Originally Posted by zooguy

have you looked at nitrous?

or forced induction?

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Well, at first I was going to look at a supercharger that had spent some time in an LT1 'Vette, but my buddy talked me out of it and the seller hasn't given me a price yet so.. I mean, sure it would be cool, but an all out N/A engine sounds like the better choice for me! I don't just want a fast car, I want to learn a lot in the process as well! :)

I haven't even given nitrous a single thought, but I guess it's like owning a weapon; better to have and not need, than to need and not have. It's not on my list at the moment, but when I can see the finish line on my project (if my project ever starts) there might be a bottle between the back seats. ;)

Thanks for posting in this thread btw!

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Originally Posted by englundjd

Yes lloyd will send it as a package. I can get you some links to headers if I get home in time

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That would be much appreciated brother, as I said before - it's a jungle out there and sometimes I feel like I do nothing but mailing different companies without getting anything useful back.
Get me a few links to headers (preferably with EGR and AIR) so I can order them as soon as possible, I really want to start this project asap!

well i would not advise doing it like i did .... but i know a stock lt1 firebird with 168,000 miles open longtube headers will go 11.9 in the 1/4 mile at 113mph on a 150hp shot and on a 200 shot on the dyno it made 422hp and 583tq to the tires ...

Have you ever heard of anders "bostic" Envall? He's a cool swede with a love for all things lt1. He may be able to help you source some used parts locally up there to help avoid shipping costs from the states. A bolt on car with 300whp is alot of fun for a beginner and you will gain a large understanding of how these motors/cars work. Shbox.com is a great lt1 resource with tons of how to stuff, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have had either of my cars. Start small, don't jump right to spray or boost. @ErikFormula

I had just bolt ons at right about 300whp, all used parts, 367 whp small ported heads cam in my impala that @popo has now, and helped build a Procharged 383 94 camaro. Start from beginning, headers, decent exhaust, roller rockers, tb bypass, electric water pump, cold air intake and elbow. Then a tune

Scorpion self aligning 1.6 roller rockers or comp ultra pro magnum self aligning 1.6 roller rockers are good beginner friendly rockers. Get arp 3/8 rocker studs.

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Originally Posted by SSlowBoat

Have you ever heard of anders "bostic" Envall? He's a cool swede with a love for all things lt1. He may be able to help you source some used parts locally up there to help avoid shipping costs from the states. A bolt on car with 300whp is alot of fun for a beginner and you will gain a large understanding of how these motors/cars work. Shbox.com is a great lt1 resource with tons of how to stuff, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have had either of my cars. Start small, don't jump right to spray or boost. @ErikFormula

I had just bolt ons at right about 300whp, all used parts, 367 whp small ported heads cam in my impala that @popo has now, and helped build a Procharged 383 94 camaro. Start from beginning, headers, decent exhaust, roller rockers, tb bypass, electric water pump, cold air intake and elbow. Then a tune

Scorpion self aligning 1.6 roller rockers or comp ultra pro magnum self aligning 1.6 roller rockers are good beginner friendly rockers. Get arp 3/8 rocker studs.

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Yes, every car enthusiast in Sweden has heard about 'Bostic', and he had a MEAN Impala SS LT1 back in the day that could kick the tires loose in 100 mph! :-0 He was also actually a close friend to Smokey Yunick until he died (RIP). Thank you for your reply, you gave me much to think about, for real! As I've said before my first mod will be headers and I will work my way from there, and I would like to order them asap. I will see if I can maybe get a hold of Bostic tomorrow via mail and see what he can bring to the table!

And thanks for the tip on the rockers, it looks like it will be one of those you suggested!

Btw, what are your opinion on so called cheap eBay headers in comparison to Pacesetters for example?
And is is maybe worth buying offroad headers and block off the EGR and AIR?

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Originally Posted by ErikFormula

Yes, every car enthusiast in Sweden has heard about 'Bostic', and he had a MEAN Impala SS LT1 back in the day that could kick the tires loose in 100 mph! :-0 He was also actually a close friend to Smokey Yunick until he died (RIP). Thank you for your reply, you gave me much to think about, for real! As I've said before my first mod will be headers and I will work my way from there, and I would like to order them asap. I will see if I can maybe get a hold of Bostic tomorrow via mail and see what he can bring to the table!

And thanks for the tip on the rockers, it looks like it will be one of those you suggested!

Btw, what are your opinion on so called cheap eBay headers in comparison to Pacesetters for example?
And is is maybe worth buying offroad headers and block off the EGR and AIR?

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Get off road headers if you can get away with it, just makes life easier to delete things.i don't know how Sweden is with emissions. I would be hesitant on ebay headers, someone else may chime in but I've heard good and bad. Pacesetter or summit brand would be my go to.

Bostic is a cool dude. Have chatted with him a couple times on Facebook as he is a friend of a friend, Karl ellwein, the very intelligent lt1 engine builder

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Just sent him a mail and hoping for the best! :) Sweden is probably the worst country in the world for a car enthusiast so I'll guess I go for EGR and so on..

sorry it took so long to get back with links, I've had a busy week.

Re-branded pace setter long tube headers with egr/air attachments: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...model/firebird
.pace setters are decent bang for your buck as far as im concerned. they fit ok, and there not real expensive. The problem is there mild steel and painted so they start to rust after a year or so... have a friend with them and he has had them for 4 or 5 years and that seems to be his only complaint

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Originally Posted by englundjd

sorry it took so long to get back with links, I've had a busy week.

Re-branded pace setter long tube headers with egr/air attachments: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...model/firebird
.pace setters are decent bang for your buck as far as im concerned. they fit ok, and there not real expensive. The problem is there mild steel and painted so they start to rust after a year or so... have a friend with them and he has had them for 4 or 5 years and that seems to be his only complaint

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I had a set that had been on 5 different cars over 10 years. Still didn't leak and weren't rotted thru.

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Have the headers cera-metallic coated when they arrive in Sweden. Or in US if not available in Sweden. Greatly reduces rust, keeps heat in the exhaust gasses, which keeps under hood temperatures a bit lower and may even pick up a couple extra HP with improved scavenging. My AS&M headers with HPC coating are 18 years old, and I bought them second hand in 2000. A few specs of rust developing on the weld splatter near the flange, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by englundjd

sorry it took so long to get back with links, I've had a busy week.

Re-branded pace setter long tube headers with egr/air attachments: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...model/firebird
.pace setters are decent bang for your buck as far as im concerned. they fit ok, and there not real expensive. The problem is there mild steel and painted so they start to rust after a year or so... have a friend with them and he has had them for 4 or 5 years and that seems to be his only complaint

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No problem bro, I think we have a winner here! What if I buy heat wrap and wrap them, and do a serious paintjob before on them? Will they rust away as fast then too? I mean, something has to be able to be done to protect them, or am I missing something? I am a licensed welder, so I could probably touch them up every now and then, but as I type this I hear how ridiculous that sounds.. ^^

But a nice coat of paint should protect them well, right? Or what about galvanization? We galvanize a ton of stuff at work, would that be an alternative?

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Originally Posted by Injuneer

Have the headers cera-metallic coated when they arrive in Sweden. Or in US if not available in Sweden. Greatly reduces rust, keeps heat in the exhaust gasses, which keeps under hood temperatures a bit lower and may even pick up a couple extra HP with improved scavenging. My AS&M headers with HPC coating are 18 years old, and I bought them second hand in 2000. A few specs of rust developing on the weld splatter near the flange, but that's it.

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Good to know, definitely looking into that!

Btw, when my car is done it's gonna look like yours! Sweet ride bro, be proud! ;)

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Originally Posted by SSlowBoat

I had a set that had been on 5 different cars over 10 years. Still didn't leak and weren't rotted thru.

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Sounds reassuring, tomorrow I'm gonna find a y-pipe and take a look at the shipping!



Btw guys, is it worth buying a y-pipe or could I buy lots of pipes, flanges and bends and build one myself?

Oh I found another question; what is the difference between headers for my car and earlier models?
Or can I put headers from a, let's say -95, on mine?

Any lt1 header will work. 93-97 there all the same headers

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OP

don't wrap the headers...they will rust faster. Your really want them ceramic coated. I have used Jet Hot on a few of my cars/headers. The ones I have on my Impala SS now have been on for 18 years and are Jet Hot coated. There are other companies doing coating, I just have always used Jet Hot.

You can order headers direct from them to save $ on buying from somewhere else and then shipping to Jet Hot if they do carry the header you like

As long as the headers are non-emissions, they are all the same with regard to bolt pattern. But if you have to have emission compliant, 93 AIR hookups are different than 94-95. And emissions compliant 96/97 headers will be yet another configuration, because they have to keep the driver's side cat in the stock position. Same bolt pattern, different emissions.

You may be able to find a way around that mess, depending on the rules in Sweden, but you did indicate you want to keep the AIR and EGR. What about the catalytic converter(s)?

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Originally Posted by Injuneer

As long as the headers are non-emissions, they are all the same with regard to bolt pattern. But if you have to have emission compliant, 93 AIR hookups are different than 94-95. And emissions compliant 96/97 headers will be yet another configuration, because they have to keep the driver's side cat in the stock position. Same bolt pattern, different emissions.

You may be able to find a way around that mess, depending on the rules in Sweden, but you did indicate you want to keep the AIR and EGR. What about the catalytic converter(s)?

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I was thinking about a race cat or an original catalytic converter after the y-pipe or maybe even directly before it, wouldn't that work? Now that I think about it I would probably put them directly after the header collectors and before the y-pipe, you can't get closer than that!


Anyway, from one thing to another, I placed an order yesterday for;

PSM-70-2237
Headers, Quicktrip, Full-Length, Steel, Painted, Chevy, Pontiac, 5.7L

PSM-82-1161
Exhaust, Y-Pipe, Steel, Aluminized

FEL-1406
Exhaust Gaskets, Header, Steel Core Laminate, D-Port, Chevy, Small Block, Set

STG-8911A
Header Fasteners, Bolts, Locking, Double Hex Head, Steel, Nickel Plated, Chevy, V6, Small Block V8, Set of 12

The dude on the live chat assured me that it would all fit together, so I'm hoping for the best. Forgot about header wrap and new poly motor mounts but I will place another order soon with 1,6RR's and so on.


So what do you guys think about my order?

Btw, they threw in a Summit Racing Equipment®, World's Speed Shop® Flamed Logo, Black, Men's Medium t-shirt also, nice huh? :)

Looks good to me. Make sure you don't install your 1.6 roller rockers on factory springs. Imo that's asking for issues.

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Originally Posted by BALLSS

OP

don't wrap the headers...they will rust faster. Your really want them ceramic coated. I have used Jet Hot on a few of my cars/headers. The ones I have on my Impala SS now have been on for 18 years and are Jet Hot coated. There are other companies doing coating, I just have always used Jet Hot.

You can order headers direct from them to save $ on buying from somewhere else and then shipping to Jet Hot if they do carry the header you like

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I totally missed this message, sorry! But thanks for the info, it sounds like an awesome company!

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Originally Posted by ErikFormula

I was thinking about a race cat or an original catalytic converter after the y-pipe or maybe even directly before it, wouldn't that work? Now that I think about it I would probably put them directly after the header collectors and before the y-pipe, you can't get closer than that!

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If you are required to use cats, a cat on each collector will produce the best results. I run a 3" CarSound cat on each collector. Your 97 should have both pre-cat and after-cat heated O2 sensors. You have to keep the pre-cat sensors. After-cat sensors can be deleted, they are just there to tell the PCM if the cats are working. But to avoid codes and an SES light, you have to have the codes programmed out of the PCM.

In the US, a state like California rigidly enforces the requirement that the cats cannot be moved from the stock location. Long tube headers relocate the cats. If you have a similar visual inspection in Sweden you may have a problem. Hopefully they don't know or care much about details like factory cat location.

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Originally Posted by englundjd

Looks good to me. Make sure you don't install your 1.6 roller rockers on factory springs. Imo that's asking for issues.

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When it's time for RR's I will check all the facts with you guys before I do anything! ;)


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Originally Posted by Injuneer

If you are required to use cats, a cat on each collector will produce the best results. I run a 3" CarSound cat on each collector. Your 97 should have both pre-cat and after-cat heated O2 sensors. You have to keep the pre-cat sensors. After-cat sensors can be deleted, they are just there to tell the PCM if the cats are working. But to avoid codes and an SES light, you have to have the codes programmed out of the PCM.

In the US, a state like California rigidly enforces the requirement that the cats cannot be moved from the stock location. Long tube headers relocate the cats. If you have a similar visual inspection in Sweden you may have a problem. Hopefully they don't know or care much about details like factory cat location.

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Yup, -97:s have two cats.. that suck. But isn't there a way to trick the after-cat sensors to make it seem like they are doing their job? Like a fake sensor you put in its place? If so - what's the name or part number?

Anyway, do you have any pics of your setup? Would be fun to see the cats and collectors and so on.

And btw, I'm gonna go for an electric cut-out as well, but where is the best location for that on my car?


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You can still buy O2 "sims", but not sure of the quality. The US Environmental Protection Agency cracked down on the main manufacturer (Casper Electronics) if the sims, fined them $70,000 and forced them to stop making them. Can still find them on eBay.

If you are going to make any serious modifications, particularly a more aggressive cam, you are going to need a PCM "tune". They can delete the after-cat codes as part of the tune.

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Originally Posted by Injuneer

You can still buy O2 "sims", but not sure of the quality. The US Environmental Protection Agency cracked down on the main manufacturer (Casper Electronics) if the sims, fined them $70,000 and forced them to stop making them. Can still find them on eBay.

If you are going to make any serious modifications, particularly a more aggressive cam, you are going to need a PCM "tune". They can delete the after-cat codes as part of the tune.

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So the only thing not having rear O2:s is doing is throwing codes? That I can live with, my car isn't going to inspection until next spring.

My future cam swap might be done when the season is over, so it's a couple of months left. My headers on the other hand, they will be in place as soon as they arrive! ;)

But can I drive with the headers and SLP cold air kit as soon as they are installed, or will they need a tune right away? Will the fake 02-sensors help me out?


I just came up with another question; these cars are tuned by sending away the PCM right? So is that what I should do or should I find a 'real' tuner who does it in real time?


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Originally Posted by ErikFormula

I just came up with another question; these cars are tuned by sending away the PCM right? So is that what I should do or should I find a 'real' tuner who does it in real time?


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yes you "mail" your PCM to the tuner and they make the adjustments and send it back. Shipping to Sweden...will cost more. Some may have a "core" or loaner deal where they send you a tuned PCM and you return your core. I suspect they charge $ until they receive your core PCM though. If you do the later, confirm the new PCM has a knock module in it and if not remove yours from the PCM and put in the new one before you return your core. If it were me I would send the PCM you have vs getting a unknown one form a tuner to replace it

If you can find a local tuner who does LT1's in Sweden great...don't know if anyone there does it as the market would be quite small

IDK what your car inspection is like there in Sweden so you might want to confirm what they allow in terms of having or not having CATS, etc. Long tube headers move the CATS back so they don't work as well doing what they are supposed to do by reducing HC' & CO and NO so even though the CATS are on you could fail tail pipe emission test if that is what you have. If it is just a visual inspection than all you would need is the CATS physically installed

Lots of good info for a noob like me, thank you! Well inspection in Sweden is like a coin toss. If the car gets a pass is entirely up to who does the inspection.. but if your car gets a thumbs down, then you just go to the next station and hope for the best! I actually know of a guy that has driven through every inspection the last few years with a supercharger under the hood, but they don't care because they know it's a car in very good condition otherwise. And this is not a second hand story, he told me himself.


But are the cats really doing that bad of a job if you have them right after the collector and thus before the y-pipe? I was thinking about putting a third cat after the y-pipe just to show that I actually care about the environment! ^^ Of course I'll add a cut-out before the last one, but it's the thought that counts, right?

A cat that far back probably wouldn't ever reach operating temps

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Originally Posted by englundjd

A cat that far back probably wouldn't ever reach operating temps

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You're probably right, so instead I should let the y-pipe end in another y-pipe (?) with one Dynomax Bullet on each side, or what do you think?


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Let it run all the way back, with a cat back exhaust or ditch the y pipe and run a bullet off each collector and be super freaking loud.

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Originally Posted by englundjd

Let it run all the way back, with a cat back exhaust or ditch the y pipe and run a bullet off each collector and be super freaking loud.

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Although I like your first idea I think the cat-back feels like a better one. I have enough problems with my hearing as it is. ^^ I'm going headers > cats > y-pipe > cat-back, that sounds like a winning concept even though I have no previous experience of this. ;)


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Haha well the popular cat back systems seem to be borla and magnaflow. Otherwise there is the hooker setup, corsa (feeling rich?), Flowmaster, and a few others that sell on ebay... I don't recommend Flowmaster because that perticular muffler that is used in there cat back setup is pretty restrictive

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If you want to go big, Mufflex makes 3-1/2" and 4" catbacks, with choice of Flowmaster single-outlet race muffler, or Spintech dual outlet.

http://www.mufflex-performance.com/2...gle-cat-system

I ran the 3" CarSound cat on each collector extension, a custom Mufflex 3"->4" Y-pipe, and the 4" Flowmaster single outlet. The cats were flanged so they could be dropped out and replaced with 3" Borla XR1 mufflers. Very tight fit, but will work. Flowmaster had a heavy resonance around 2,500 RPM. Spintech is much more civilized, with no loss of power. But the big system weighs a lot.

Eventually, I just put the Borlas on the collectors and a 3" pipe on each side back toward the axle, with turndowns. Saved maybe 40 pounds. Good thing is, 1995 and earlier vehicles no longer require an emissions check.

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Originally Posted by Injuneer

If you want to go big, Mufflex makes 3-1/2" and 4" catbacks, with choice of Flowmaster single-outlet race muffler, or Spintech dual outlet.

http://www.mufflex-performance.com/2...gle-cat-system

I ran the 3" CarSound cat on each collector extension, a custom Mufflex 3"->4" Y-pipe, and the 4" Flowmaster single outlet. The cats were flanged so they could be dropped out and replaced with 3" Borla XR1 mufflers. Very tight fit, but will work. Flowmaster had a heavy resonance around 2,500 RPM. Spintech is much more civilized, with no loss of power. But the big system weighs a lot.

Eventually, I just put the Borlas on the collectors and a 3" pipe on each side back toward the axle, with turndowns. Saved maybe 40 pounds. Good thing is, 1995 and earlier vehicles no longer require an emissions check.

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That recipe sounded dope, that is probably the way I'm going! Because I really want cats to at least have a fighting chance at passing inspections. How much did the 3" CarSound cats cost you?


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Originally Posted by ErikFormula

That recipe sounded dope, that is probably the way I'm going! Because I really want cats to at least have a fighting chance at passing inspections. How much did the 3" CarSound cats cost you?


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@Ltconvert has a mufflex 3.5" with MagnaFlow single outlet muffler sounds great

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The 4" is a tight squeeze, but it won't rattle because it's wedged in there.