I am starting to look into 12 bolts. I see Moser costs 3k and Strange is 2k. But which is stronger? Which is better? Pros and cons. Please don't hold back.
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I am starting to look into 12 bolts. I see Moser costs 3k and Strange is 2k. But which is stronger? Which is better? Pros and cons. Please don't hold back.
The most common problem with the Moser is the 4 individual bolts they use for the torque arm, instead of the 2 stock style thru bolts. Seems that no matter what you do they keep loosening up. BMR for example, will not warranty their torque arms, if used with the Moser 12-bolt.
I put in a used Moser 12 bolt a couple of years ago and has been fine. It has the Detroit tru track and works great at the track with sticky tires. I know two people at my local track both have turbo Camaros one runs high 8's the other really low 9's that have the same Moser that I do except with a spool...no issues.
I have heard that yet to experience it for myself. Wonder how long it takes for them to work loose. I've been waiting for it to happen but nothing yet and I check before ever event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Injuneer
Does strange use the thru bolts? And would red loctite make it to where the bolts won't back out?
Strange uses the through bolts.
Maybe Moser has improved their design, but BMR still has the warning that it voids the warranty:
I'm just going by problems I've seen over the past 15 years of dealing with 4th Gen/LT1 oriented bulletin boards. I have a Strange.Quote:
IMPORTANT NOTICE TO MOSER 12 BOLT USERS: This product is only warrantable on rear axles that utilize the factory style “through bolts” to connect the torque arm to the rear end. Moser 12 bolt rear ends utilize a threaded bolt hole that has been proven to have bolt retention issues when used with aftermarket torque arms. If you have this particular rear axle, understand this warranty disclaimer and still wish to use this product, keep in mind that lock washers, or Loctite brand thread sealants are not substitutes for periodic bolt inspection.
In the early years of "Strange vs. Moser" 12-bolts, the Moser required some assembly, lacked instructions, and often failed to include some required shims. Some people reported that even though the stock driveshaft was supposed to be the correct length, they had problems using it with the Moser.
On the other hand, the Strange came fully assembled, lube installed and run in at the factory. They also included a cross-over U-joint so you could run the stock DS with the 1350 pinion yoke. Stock DS fit perfectly.
The biggest problem with the Strange was delivery... they built each one to order, and it could take a month or more to get it. A particular problem if you wanted the HD Eaton 33-spline posi with the ABS option. The Eaton had to have the ABS reluctor gear machined into the carrier, not just bolted on. That could increase the lead time, until they got the Eaton. The Moser ships in a day or two.
I am a bit puzzled about the Strange cost as "2k".... the Strange price for the unit is currently $2,595 on their website:
http://www.strangeengineering.net/hi...ss-brakes.html
Back when I bought mine, I'm pretty sure it was around $2,800 with shipping. But back then they included the LPW aluminum cover with the bearing cap preload bolts, the ABS was extra. The current catalog listing does not show who makes the posi unit. I know mine was the Eaton "super strength" unit.
i was looking at a few weeks ago that showed quite a few rear end options.
i am glad to see you not talking about the 9in f-word rear..no matter what 12 bolt you go with it's gm based.i love it! :claps:
good info here is the link
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/g...e/viewall.html
I'm running the strange s60 it's the same price and stronger . Not sure if it was something that you had looked at
If a dana was same price as a 12 bolt I would get a Dana. .. 10 times as strong. .. not saying a 12 bolt isn't strong, but if I had to pick dana all the way. ..
To answer your other question stranges quality is second to none. .. you'll find strange products on more cars then anything period... not again bashing Moser but if you were to post this on the bullet you would have 5 guys running strange To Mosers 1.
That works. And yes the S 60 crossed my mind. My only thing with it was the driveshaft. And the 2k was rough. The Moser is over 3k easy without shipping. And I am building a 450whp (roughly) engine. So the 10 bolt won't last. So I thought 12 but if y'all are saying the S 60 (dana) then I might suck it up and get a new driveshaft. ..
Remember also, the strange has 2.5" axle tubes and the moser has 3" axle tubes. WILL affect installing a swaybar on the rear. I have a Strange in mine also.
I used 3" muffler claps to attach My rear sway bar and have not had any issues with the bolts backing out but I used lock washers and loctite
"That works. And yes the S 60 crossed my mind. My only thing with it was the driveshaft. And the 2k was rough. The Moser is over 3k easy without shipping. And I am building a 450whp (roughly) engine. So the 10 bolt won't last. So I thought 12 but if y'all are saying the S 60 (dana) then I might suck it up and get a new driveshaft. .. "
With a T56 your gonna want a drive shaft with solid 1350 U-joints anyway....just sayin!
Yeah and I am gonna get them. I am just debating the rear. 12 bolt or s 60. Leaning 12 bolt but I am open to discussion. I don't know which to get but I am probably gonna get a Strange rear from the way people are talking.
Speed Inc - Strange Engineering Complete Bolt-in S60 Dana Rear End
http://www.speedinc.com/shop-by-vehi...-rear-end.html
Speed Inc - Strange Engineering Complete Bolt-in 12 Bolt Rear End
http://www.speedinc.com/shop-by-vehi...-rear-end.html
The 12-bolt is good for at least 700-800 flywheel HP. I'm running 800 HP/800 lb-ft at the flywheel. When the car was still the T56 I was doing 5,000+ RPM dumps with a Street Twin on 28" ET Streets. The Strange never missed a beat.
The Strange (Dana) 60 is even stronger. The only downside is about 25# extra weight. On the plus side it has lower power losses - 5% loss vs. 7% for the 12-bolt and 10% for the 9-inch.
Wait how does the S 60 have lower power loss? It's a bigger rear end...
The power loss difference in simplified terms, is the result of relative locations of the ring gear centerline and the pinion shaft centerline. The closer they are to being at the same height, the lower the losses in the gear mesh/bearing loads. The Dana has them closer together, the 9-inch places the pinion shaft centerline much lower than the ring gear centerline.
I got all this out of an article in National Dragster by Evan Smith, their former technical editor. I'd guess the article goes back at least 15 years.
Did not know that. I thought it was just the size difference. That's one reason I was thinking 12 bolt over s60. But since that is the case, then I probably will get the s60.
S60 all the way. You won't break it and it won't break you. Josh can get you a price on one too. Only downside is they have about a 4-6 week lead time last time I called. If I was a more patient man I would have went with an s60 over my 9" (ended up with the same amount of $ in it buying used and the s60 is much stronger.)
I have time. Just starting to save up. And the new engine hasn't even been finished yet.
Honestly I wouldnt spend the money on a 12 bolt especially if you're a 6 speed. Everyone I know has had nothing but trouble with them in torque arm cars with t56s. They end up either being extremely noisey or pop on them. The S60 is much stronger (though I've heard of noise complaints) and the 9" is similar in strength to the S60 but with way better gear options and the price is the same for either compared to the 12 bolt. The bare bones Moser starts at around $2100-2200 for a 9". Mine ended up around $3200 since I opted for ABS and a WaveTrac. Bob at Brutespeed won't even sell 12 bolts because he apparently got tired of customers complaining about problems with them.
As far as differentials, I'd either go spool or wavetrac, the Detroit Locker can be sketchy in a street car and the Truetracs seem to be pretty much useless after 450hp. The spool is damn near built proof and the cheapest, the wavetrac is a posi and has a lifetime warranty, though the most expensive option.
After reading all this, I am gonna go S60. Just gotta save up now. Because I will need a driveshaft and a modded torque arm correct?
You will need a Drive shaft which I believe I paid around $300 for . Any aftermarket TA will work with a little trimming , some folks have gotten away without going to the second set of holes , I've also seen people use the stocker
I'm running a stock DS on my 9", as for torque arm idk had an aftermarket one before I bought the rear but I would imagine its not needed considering they use the same holes and trans mount.