help guys

[93v8clone]

im torn in what dirrection i wanna go in, im doin heads this yr either way i go .im torn between le2,s le3,s or afr 195,s . the motor is a high comp 358 forged crank rods pistons ,with the cc503 in it, all the bolt ons 4 k converter and so on i mostly drive this car late at night or at the track what head would i be better off goin with oh and im on the bottle :D

[Fastbird]

Are the AFR's the eleminator heads, the new ones?? I'd say go for those. Have you looked at AI's 200CC CNC heads though? THose are performing quite admirably.

[93v8clone]

yeah the eliminators there cnc,d and assembled for 400 more than le2,s are ,i havent looked at a/i site yet i honestly forgot about them ill look into that also great now more shit into the mix lololol

[mrbadlt1]

x2 on the AI 200ci heads there seem like really good heads

[93v8clone]

does a/i sell the 200cc head without doin a h/c package and if they do how much ? i didnt see it

[mrbadlt1]

does a/i sell the 200cc head without doin a h/c package and if they do how much ? i didnt see it

idk, im sure they would, it say $1975 + core with cam, the cams are $350 so i'd imagine between 1500-1600 for the heads

[93v8clone]

are these things flowin better than le3,s .as i dont wanna over port em and kill all the low end

[mrbadlt1]

are these things flowin better than le3,s .as i dont wanna over port em and kill all the low end

not sure, but i do know these heads are on some of the fastest f-bods in the country, if that helps :D i heard that LE3's flow about 280 cfm on the intake @ .600 lift, sorry i cant be off more help

[jakesz28]

I would go larger on the heads. The thing with a small cc head is your going to have a lot of work in them at some time to improve them. A large head will make more power with a milder cam. Some of the hype that goes on about large heads being dogs is a joke. With a small head you end up with turbalance which will run into a choke.

I think there is too much marketing going on in the head manufactoring business. 185, 195, 210, 215, 220, 235, ect. Most head porters will agree you are better to have to much flow then not enough. Stop and look at some of the builds out there were a 383 or 396 is slower then another stock short block build or 355. The're every where. Watch the cars at the tracks look at the ones that aren't running good numbers. Some of the fast LT1 records have been there for a long time.

[jakesz28]

There is a head out there cnc ported flowing good numbers but it isn't pushed on the furoms much what about the dart pro1 cnc ported by Bret? There was one set at the shootout this year I think the car just went 9.9 or 10.0 n/a with a 6 speed.

[93v8clone]

so what heads ya thinkin ? without goin to a lt4 intake or a ton of money " over 2k "

[jakesz28]

The dart pro1 can be ordered 215 cc and has a bunch of aluminum in the right places. They would run around $1500

The brodix track 1's can be cast for a LT1. It will be about a month delivery and the chamber is a little larger so you need to keep that in mind when selecting pistons. But that head could be ran out of the box now and ported at a later date if you choose. I think the port is 227CC as cast.

[93v8clone]

i cant find shit on the dart any links ?

[2fast4u88]

There is a thing as to much head. Which is what hurts your bottom end. Along with sometimes the whole rpm out put.

Afr's aren't anything fancy in stock form either. Le2's or le3's is what I would do if the stock castings are good. I don't see why that wasn't said.

In general any off the shelf head isn't any better than ported stockers. Now when they are ported is where they shine or not. You just have to decide if it is worth the extra money for what you want. Just ignore the numbers the manufactors post as most aren't even close to be right. Some are though.

When comparing heads and times. That isn't real good to go off of. A full weight car isn't going to pull them times off unless there is a power adder. Le2's could pull them times as said with the right setup and weight reduction.

Not trying to get on anyone's badside. I'm just saying.

[jakesz28]

I would not worry to much about killing the low end with a bigger head.

I don't think I would buy a AFR head myself but their larger runner heads are hard to beat for the price.

[2fast4u88]

When picking a head. Hudge runners isn't what you want. You could go with the biggest runner head out there. Then it be crap. Is loyd a site sponsor here? If he is he needs to post up some info like he did over at ls1lt1.

[jakesz28]

http://www.dartheads.com/products/cylinder-heads/chevy-heads/small-block-chevy-heads/sbc-lt1-platinum-pro1-heads.html



I would have to say any larger 220-235 CC intake port is better then a stock intake port.

I think it is about impossible to kill a motor with a 23* head unless you get a tricked out all pro 245 cc head ported with about a .550 offset intake rocker.

[93v8clone]

i said id like to run the le3,s hell even 2,s .but a local machinist said i may be better off with the afr 195 cnc eliminator over a set of stockers .i mean this isnt a all out racecar its mostly a late night sleepr and at the track once in a while ....its a toy basically

[jakesz28]

94 z-28 ,358 forged internal ,cc503,#30 svo,s , p/s longtubes, k-n c.a.i , edge 4k converter ,spohn rear susp, n/x 2 stage


Thats were you want to start making power you don't have to worry much about what happens at 2500 rpm's :claps:

[93v8clone]

very true

[2fast4u88]

I didn't see that. 4k stall. That is up there. I would hate to drive that 4k stall on the street all the time. I think I'm not saying it right. To get a better flowing head the runners are going to get bigger. But bigger isn't always better. As in say I hog a set of stockers out to be as big as I think they can get. But they just suck on flow numbers and on a motor.

Loyd doesn't even take much out of heads to change the runner volume. I mean when you smooth stuff out yea it is going to make the runner bigger. It is hard for me to explain since I'm not a porter by trade. Just peak numbers don't mean crap.

Edit: The guy you talked to might want to get more info on stockers. As there is alot out there with ported stockers doing real good times and numbers. And dumb ? why do those darts have square exhaust ports?

[jakesz28]

I didn't see that. 4k stall. That is up there. I would hate to drive that 4k stall on the street all the time. numbers and on a motor.




There not bad. You have an overdrive tranny with an eletric lock up that can be programmed to engage earlier at cruise and part thottle driving.



To get a better flowing head the runners are going to get bigger. But bigger isn't always better. As in say I hog a set of stockers out to be as big as I think they can get. But they just suck on flow numbers and on a motor.




Without a lot of welding you can't open a stock one up to far. The shape means more then the size but horsepower is in flow. you can do it with a larger port and mild cam or a small port with a lot of duration and lift. The second choice isn't as streetable.





Loyd doesn't even take much out of heads to change the runner volume. I mean when you smooth stuff out yea it is going to make the runner bigger. It is hard for me to explain since I'm not a porter by trade. Just peak numbers don't mean crap.




It is all about cross section in the throat and a minor taper on the way to the throat. The problem is the push rod pinch area limits the cross section you can get. But Lloyd has been known to weld up a head and put an offset rocker arm on it to open up the cross section. When he feels the need to do that your going to pick up some flow.

[2fast4u88]

True on the first part. Sorry not much of a auto guy. Lol

There is alot of different ways to port a head. Some do it one way. Some do it another. As for the shape I guess that is more less what I meant. But you have a big air pump for a engine. A flow bench may show good numbers. Though it may not be the same on the motor. Where the velocity of the air going in sucks. Mid numbers is what you want more than peak numbers.

I also believe loyd said he doesn't like to open a head up much. I believe it even went as far as he doesn't like to port match. Along with I think he said he doesn't worry to much about flow or peak numbers. But more of the path it takes to get there. To keep up the veloctiy of the air. I'm just going off the top of my head. Not to big into picking heads or cams. I leave that to the known good people.

I will see if I can find the info loyd said. It may give a better in sight of what I'm trying to say. I just know not to trust published numbers or just go and pick the biggest runner head I can get.

Also I guess you didn't see my last part I edited but what is up with the square ports on the dart heads?

[jakesz28]

Edit: The guy you talked to might want to get more info on stockers. As there is alot out there with ported stockers doing real good times and numbers.


Not sure if that was for me but if you look at the other thread I told the guy originally to port a stock set of heads rather then spend money on a 195cc runner that will flow about the same as the stock set. I also stated you were better off to port a stock set rather then buy a small cc runner.




Also I guess you didn't see my last part I edited but what is up with the square ports on the dart heads?


Because they flow more.

[2fast4u88]

No not you bud the machine shop guy. It is all good. Sounds like you know your stuff also. Mainly to do what in the sig.

They might flow more why you have the right shape head. But I could see the flow sucking pretty good with our d-port headers that is why I asked.

Sorry if I got off the wrong way how ever.

[2fast4u88]

Here is some info that loyd has posted and I saved. Hope he doesn't mind I posted it here. It deals with porting the intake along with the heads. Here is the link with pics and some more info. http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22610&highlight=porting+heads

here are a few write ups I have done on intake portwork.

DO NOT gasket match the intake. The floor and roof are fine at the gasket area. Just remove material from the divider wall between ports at gasket area and the outer walls just need to be straitened up if you have the intake that tapers smaller at the top. If your intake is pretty much strait on all walls, just leave it alone at the gasket area.

You wanna raise the roof of the intake just behind the inj and remove as much of that ski slope as you can.

You wanna have the port steadily get wider as it goes back to plenum area and have it end up about .100-.120 wider at the plenum area.

Lower the floor (NOT at gasket area) all the way to plenum and correct the angle that the ports on the intake and head match up. It is more of an L shape now and you need to straiten this out.

Open the TB holes up to 58 MM and grind down the IAC bump and make the TB holes go strait back by removing a lot of this hump. Then taper the bump smaller and round the bump off on the back side like an air plane wing. Remove a lot of material from the sides of the intake behind the TB holes and make it slowly taper to the rest of the intake. Make sure and look/feel on the outside of the intake and see where the thin spots are that will limit what you can do.

----------------------------------------

The intake port of the heads should not be gasket matched either. You can match the roof, floor and center divider wall but the outer walls just need to be squared up and NOT layed back to the gasket.

Once you open up the push rod pinch as far as you can, you want the outer wall to come strait back and keep the cross section as consistant as possible.

Laying the outer wall back to the gasket will do a 2 things . . . .

1 - Make the cross sectionsal areas at the PR pinch and gasket area have more of a variance causing more of a velocity change (faster at PR pinch and slower at gasket area) and hurting flow.

2 - Make the air have to see even more of a turn to go past PR pinch and hurt flow.

You want the gasket areas on the intake manifold and head to match but they do NOT need to match a gasket on the outer wall. If someone ported the heads and gasket matched them and they are all jacked up, I guess the damage is done and gasket matching the intake will not hurt any but if the heads were done correctly and NOT gasket matched, the intake doesn't need to be either.

When you measure in the intake, you will see the gasket area is pretty much the largest area and the last place to grind when trying to help flow. Measure every 1/2 inch or so up through the runner and you will see it gets smallest at the ski slope for the inj. THIS is the one area you want to grind on if you are only gonna grind on one area. Try and get the cross section at this point to match the cross section at the PR pinch and even bigger if possible. Once you have this measurement, try and keep the port the same cross section from there to the gasket area on the intake and from the gasket area to the PR pinch of the head. Once you understand this is what needs to be done, you realize opening the gasket area on the intake and head will make these areas bigger than the 2 restriction areas, you understand why it is wrong.

The gasket areas are NOT the restrictions and the PR pinch and ski slope of intake are.

------------------------------------------

What it comes down to is just get some telescoping guages and measure the cross section from roof to floor and side to side of the intake manifold and intake port of head. Measure every 1/2" through the port (and especially at minimum cross sections like the pushrod pinch and injector ski slope).

Map these out and you will see what areas need the most work and what areas need to be left alone. And by "left alone" I mean "untouched".

Anyone still reading all of this must really be interested in understanding what needs to happen to make the intake 'work" better. The ones that just smkimmed over this or did not readit at all are the ones that will just "gasket match" there heads and scrub off 3-5 HP while thinking they are adding some HP.

Lloyd

As long as the headers are the same size (or larger) than the exhaust gasket, sure, go ahead and gasket match them.

A big block Chevy has the pushrods going all different angles and this allows the cylinder head to maintain the same cross section from the gasket area through out the port. Same way for Big Block Ford, SB Ford, etc.

A typical Small Block Chevy (NOT a raised runner head with offset rockers, SB2.2, 15*, 18*, etc) has 2 intake ports side by side and pushrods are on either side causing the intake port in the head to be "necked down" asthey go around the pushrods. "THIS" is the smallest point of the intake port and everything in front of this needs to be the same size until it gets close to the plenum and then it can taper larger.

From the pushrod pinch, you can measuer about 1.850" on a stock LT1 head and my ported LT1 heads are 2.050-2.100" here. If you measure the gasket, it is much larger (2.00 x 1.25) so you can see that it would be useless to open the gasket area to the gasket size.

You can gasket match the roof, floor and center divider wall between the ports but the outer wall needs to be as strait of a shot as possible from the pushrod pinch back.

Get some of these . . . . .

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO%2D67412&N=700+115&autoview=sku)

Then mark ethem every 1/2" and measure through the port at every 1/2" point from the roof to floor and side to side and you will see what I mean.

Chart the results and you will see what areas need work and what areas do not.

This holds true for almost any head.

The valve job, shortside radius, bowl area, trasition from pushrod pinch to shortside, etc are all important as to making the head "work" and keeping the velocity as consistent as possible too but the part I touched on will at least give you an idea about "gasket matching" the intake and heads.

Lloyd
You wanna measure the air speed at the PR pinch. Measure all 9 points (top, middle and bottom and left, center, right wall. Stick the probe about .010-.020" or so off the wall and you will see air speed jump up once you get away from the boundary layer.

If you are getting different measurements (over a 20 FPS variance) at these 9 points, you need to do some more work to get the velocity constant while you are working here.

There is not really a specific # you are looking for. You just have to have the correct valve job for your cam type and port designed for the application and keep the air moving a the right speed in this are and you adjust the PR pinch measurement to make YOUR heads have the air traveling in the "sweet spot" for velocity.

Some might need a 1.90" and some might need a 2.50" measurement here to keep the air miving the correct speed. Sometimes you end up having to settle for the air miving a lil fast here unless you start welding and using offset rockers but before you open the port up here, the rest of the port (valve job, chortside radius, shape and transition to and from shortside, etc) needs to be moving some real good air.

What is right for 1 ported head is not right for another.

Valve size come into play as well as valve job, etc. A hyd flat tappet cam with .580 lift that spends most of the time in the .200-.380 lift range will like a valve job and venturi that works well in this area.

A .570 lift hyd roller that spends most of its time in the .250-.500 lift range will like a different valve job.

A solid roller with .750 lift that spends most of its time in the .400-.700 lift range will like a completely different valve job and can get by with a larger venturi since how much air the port flows at low lift doesn't matter at all.

It is all about keeping the air mioving a certain speed through out the port and also a certain speed from side to side and roof to floor. It is alot more complex than most think and that is why 2 heads can flow the same CFM but perform way different.

You are really trying to make the air move a certain speed under engine running conditions and so the above info is only 1 part of the equation.

The next part is getting the port able to feed a certain cubic inch to a specific RPM. This is if you are staring from scratch and trying to make the head "right" for the set up.

The "right" head for a specific setup might need a 2.08 to 2.14 intake valve, off set rockers to get the PR pinch large enough, etc, etc. This is usually budget limited for most customers and they wanna get the head as right as possible while still using standard rockers or stock castings or not having to change valve seats and restricted tio a 2.00 valve, etc, etc.

Lots of variables here also but I just wanted to show that there is not 1 specific size you need based on valve size alone.

Your porter should probe the head and get the air moving the speed that he feels it should be moving.

There are Programs to figure out alot of stuff and I use PipeMax all the time to get basics in the formula figured out. The true indicator for what size the port needs to be is with a pitot tube though and check the speed yourself.

For a quick answer to the question, 2.26 is closer to the size you will need once the port is all lined out and working real well. 2.54 i WAY too big and unless you are getting over 280 CFM from the 2.00 valve, you are probably gonna need something in the 2.10 range

Lloyd

[Kirby]

um, i think jake already knows how to make power, and lot's of it. I would listen instead of trying to pimp loyd, not bashing loyd but come on if ya got the money to buy darts or afr's or brodix and have them ported, instead of stockers ported easy decision

[2fast4u88]

Never said I was trying to pimp loyd. Just saying. Hell loyd, Ai or any of the other ported stockers. Would do could be done. I don't care what porter is choosen.

Yes if money is no problem and your all game go get a set of aftermarket heads and have them ported. Out of the box how ever they aren't much at all.

But either way. I will stay out of this thread since ones still like to be that way. Not towards you jake. Just can't stand the guy. Kind of bad I pretty much leave the site. That he would follow me around on to bash. Then comes over here and finds one thread he can make his point in like always. You crack me up kirby. Needless to say.

Later jake nice talking to you. To the op listen to who ever the porter is going to be. Or give some a call.

[93v8clone]

i called l/e already .he said the le2 would work for me well but in the same breath the le3,s would do well also like i said the car aint a full on race car and i dont have money to just throw at it but i do make a good living . oh and the 4 k stall is one of the tightest i have ever been in great drivin under normall throttle but get on the loud pedal and it screams

[2fast4u88]

Well I lied but any way I would do something like get the le2's or le3's. Or get the stockers ported by who ever you like. I would get a matching cam designed for the heads though. See how you like it and all. Then if you don't like it you can sell the stuff and upgrade down the road.

I honestly think you will be happy with ported stockers on a budget. That is what it sounds like to me though. That you just want to have fun with more power that doesn't cost you a arm and a leg.

But by all means a aftermarket head would be better if it is ported/touched up but then the price comes into play also.

[Kirby]

follow you around? check the jion date i been here for awhile. and listing to jake is good advice not bashing. i didn't make you do anything andnever had a infraction or pm telling me i was bashing from anysite. have you? ya. i like this site and buy a lot of parts off of it. 1 post and you act like a little girl?

[93v8clone]

well after talkin with loyd i decided on doin a le2 setup that should put me where i wanna be with this motor as i picked up another ltx today to build into a blower motor i think , i stole it out of a 96 vette that got hammered in the rear end of it so its a 4 bolt bottom . anyone got any idea where my power should look like with the le2 setup loyd wasnt to sure and i think he was busy when i got ahold of him wed morn