Two new bests.. closer to 8's...

[OutlawZ]

Well after thrashing with my crew chief and electrician till 2AM yesterday morning on a work night no less getting the new electrical parts on my car after the car gave us nothing but problems at sacramento due to a weird ignition miss, we drug the car up to Infineon for some time only passes tonight. Nice cool air but a vicious headwind/crosswind on the track. Oh well.... we swapped the distributor cap and rotor, rephased the motor for 17 degrees of timing, and put a whole new set of MSD race wires with trick billet looms to go above the headers instead of under.
Now onto the news. We said fuck a motor pass cause we weren't going to have time. went straight to the 150 jets. I said if it misses i'll lift in case we didn't fix the problem. did my burnout and launched and this thing got FUCKING BUSY. The throttle response with the new rotor and cap was amazing. Up onto the wheelie bars and a 1.37 60 foot! A new best on these or any jets up to now. Didn't feel any miss on the high end at all... pick up my timeslip and it went:
9.69@137.3mph with a 1.37 60'....
YouTube - Infineon150shot
Second pass we put the 150 on the other side of the plate and have the 2nd kit coming on at a lazy 1.8 seconds to be sure i'd be just getting in 2nd gear. We also swapped plugs in between and realized we had nipped the #6 plug ground strap. not super bad but you could tell it melted a bit. So we pulled another 3 degrees of timing on the 1st unit and another 3 more for the 2nd unit from what we had. So total timing on both stages was gonna be 11 degrees!!!!! crazy safe and crazy conservative but i don't wanna be burning plugs either. Plugged in 11.5:1 AFR on the 1st and 11.3:1 on the 2nd for a target. Do a good burnout, purge and get ready to stage. I shallow staged and the bulb flickered so i jumped forward another inch and got a solid full stage light. threw off my light timing but i was racing alone so who cares. stand on it and let go of the transbrake and OMG, it was FUCKING GNARLY. Front end sky high and i know she's up on the wheelie bars hard. I grab second and a moment later i hear the engine sound change when the 2nd unit comes on.... pull high gear and she's rolling out. No miss or crazy antics but it did feel a bit lazy seeing as how 300 angry horses were spraying into a motor that already makes 600 horse...
Pick up my timeslip and read the good news....
9.39@143 with get this a 1.33 60'!!!!!!!! leaving hard like a motherfucker....
Also broke into the 5's in the 1/8th mile... 5.98@115.7mph....
heres the video. I couldn't be happier with it. After nipping a plug it brought us back to earth realizing this shit is no game at these power levels. one wrong move could be disastrous so we brought the timing way down where we knew we wouldn't damage it but we probably killed about 50-60hp from it with timing that conservative. we're gonna creep up on it 1 degree at a time until we find the sweet spot where she wants to be.
YouTube - Infineon300shot

[claysdad]

Good job. Very impressive!

[Fastbird]

Congrats man!!!! You're definitely getting there. I remember watching you at Sacramento way back in the late 90's running in the mid 11's and everyone going "Wow" back then! :D

[jakesz28]

You will be surprised about pulling extra timing. It did not effect the e.t. much on my car. With every degree of timing I would put back in the MPH would climb but only by .3-.4mph. So I would just add one degree at a timing. Very little change in e.t. which I still find hard to beleave.

This approach of pulling more timing then needed has worked so far with me and I haven't nipped a plug yet.


I also say you will have to lean it out or the result will be a lifted ring land if you keep hitting it with 300 and a 11.2 AFR. That is also the reason why you said it may have felt a little lazy. With it rich your not making enough heat to reach max power. A motor on nitrous wants about the same AFR as it did n/a

[Tony Shepherd]

Good job Jason and thanks for the text messages last night.

My runs were in the 11.2-11.4 range as well. I want to be in the 12.5 range when it is all said and done.

We would be a damn good race right now. Time to upgrade and up jet! You do the same!:devil:

Look out Mike Jacobs! We comin!:secret:

[Tony Shepherd]

Good job. Very impressive!

You have an impressive car! Jason Warren's old car right?

[claysdad]

You have an impressive car! Jason Warren's old car right?
Thank you. Yes it is Jason's old car. I was gonna bring it to the shootout but I have no NHRA license.

[Tony Shepherd]

Thank you. Yes it is Jason's old car. I was gonna bring it to the shootout but I have no NHRA license.

You should have come. I think myself and one other person had our license at the shootout. They did not even check for them!!:D

[joelster]

Thank you. Yes it is Jason's old car. I was gonna bring it to the shootout but I have no NHRA license.

Maybe you guys could have done license passes between qualifying rounds, or just slow the car down and run bracket racing.

To the OP- awesome vids! Maybe i'm wrong but you can't see or hear a purge in the second vid. It's possible you did it before the video started though.

[Formula383]

Congrats Jason!!

[OutlawZ]

thanks guys..... yeah the video was started after my burnout and purge in the 2nd video..... bottle pressure was only 850 cause it got so cold out. I don't run a bottle warmer cause in cali I rarely have to worry about heat (until last night)....

Mike that is interesting with timing. you're probably right about the A/F ratio. My tuner says that you can lift a ringland with a rich tune but that "lifting ringlands" rich is more like sub 10:1..... He says that a tune rich enough to lift ringlands will foul plugs and blow black smoke down the entire track under power.... And my car DOES NOT do that at all... So we are thinking we are going to incrementally up the timing 1 degree at a time till we get the timing mark on the bend of the strap. Then we'll chase the A/F by shutting down and looking at the fuel ring.... we want to concentrate on one item at a time. Timing is easier since the timing mark stays on the strap even if we drive the car back to the pits...

I don't think that the timing being right will chop the .39 we need. I think it'll maybe pick up a tenth or so. I think the power is going to lie in the fueling and bringing on the nitrous way quicker before the 60 foot mark. We're leaving only on a 150 shot and cutting 1.33's.... the other unit didn't come on until 1.8 seconds in.... Some guys i've seen including you I think are coming out of the hole on 250+ hp or more right???? That's where I think the secret will lie. How much spray can I come out of the hole with... Hell if my car hooks on both units out the hole it'll go 1.2x!!!! And probably snap my friggin spine... :D

Yeah sean those were the days at sacto... mid 11's was pretty fast in the 90's... :D:D:D at least for an old LT1....

No prob Tony on the videos. YOu need to stop changing parts on your car before we talk about it... LOL... I find out you have a new dizzy with a cam sync and now you got new heads on order. WTF man?!?!?!?! LOL....

Oh and thanks claysdad... Owning Jason Warrens' old car must be the shit man. That car is legendary. I built my old motor after his old motor but never got to spray a 300 shot before it took out the thrust bearing.... I ABSOLUTELY love and idolize that car.... JW was doing it long before any of us were having wet dreams about running 9's....

[RoboLuke]

Congrats. Love the videos.

[Tony Shepherd]

JW was doing it long before any of us were having wet dreams about running 9's....

I was running 9's over 5 years ago ho!:devil:

[AChotrod]

Congrats again!!! That car is sick!!!! Now its a race to see whom will be the 2nd N2o car in the 8s!!!!

[jakesz28]

Look out Mike Jacobs! We comin!:secret:


When you guys think you have something on me I will surprise you all again. :D I actually hope someone does it soon. I need some motivation to do some work on the car anyways. Once I reached my goal it made me stop and think about what I want to do next. I have a pretty good idea of what I can do to get an 8.50 out of it.

[jakesz28]

Mike that is interesting with timing. you're probably right about the A/F ratio. My tuner says that you can lift a ringland with a rich tune but that "lifting ringlands" rich is more like sub 10:1..... He says that a tune rich enough to lift ringlands will foul plugs and blow black smoke down the entire track under power.... And my car DOES NOT do that at all... So we are thinking we are going to incrementally up the timing 1 degree at a time till we get the timing mark on the bend of the strap. Then we'll chase the A/F by shutting down and looking at the fuel ring.... we want to concentrate on one item at a time. Timing is easier since the timing mark stays on the strap even if we drive the car back to the pits...

I don't think that the timing being right will chop the .39 we need. I think it'll maybe pick up a tenth or so. I think the power is going to lie in the fueling and bringing on the nitrous way quicker before the 60 foot mark. We're leaving only on a 150 shot and cutting 1.33's.... the other unit didn't come on until 1.8 seconds in.... Some guys i've seen including you I think are coming out of the hole on 250+ hp or more right???? That's where I think the secret will lie. How much spray can I come out of the hole with... Hell if my car hooks on both units out the hole it'll go 1.2x!!!! And probably snap my friggin spine... :D

....


Just a thought. Lets say you decide to get a good timing mark first like you said then work on the fuel ring. You will not have that hot of a burn with the extra fuel in there. So you will keep adding timing until you get a good mark. Once the mark is there you will still have a dark fuel ring. The heat is from what I would consider being overtimed. Now if you try to lean it out you will nip a plug or burn a piston.

Lets say you decide to keep that timing low. You start working on cleaning up the fuel ring first. At first your plugs will have no timing mark. After you start leaning it out a little. I would skip the wideband and not even look at it until you are there. Just work on cleaning up the plug until the fuel ring is thin and light in color. What you will start to see is the timing mark will come into view. So what you thought was safe timing may actually be closer then first suspected.


On my car on the last time out I was leaving on 100hp on the plate and 250hp in the fogger coming in .1 seconds out. So basically the full 350 at the release of the brake. Currently it is all going to come in on the fogger without using the plate. You have to get all the power in as quickly as you can. I need to pull the converter out and loosen it up a little or add more power because my 60 is still soft.

I wish you the best of luck. Your car is looking good and rolling out.


EDIT Do you have a way to datalog the crankcase vacuum? If you do this is a real important tuning tool. Probably more important then the wideband. When you are able to maintain a good vacuum of lets say 13lbs. If you start getting any detonation your vacuum will drop or jump around from losing ringseal. At this point you are overtimed, to hot of plug, hot spots in the chamber ect.

[Badhawk]

Congrats on the passes the car is getting down.

[OutlawZ]

hmmmm so what method do you recommend for creeping up on a good tune? Timing first, fuel ring first or a combination of both at the same time????

I could use low timing and try leaning it out little by little right???? so say 11 degrees advanced now and start aiming more towards upper 11s to 1 af ratio???

Also keep in mind that this being a fuel injected car and using the FAST XFI to datalog and track air fuel ratios. My car uses target af ratios and is run in closed loop by my tuner. I know everyone says that I have talked to that that is ludicrous to tune that way. But my tuner does a dry system on his nova that runs in the 7's, and tunes for several PSCA cars that also run in the 7's and low 8's.... and he's always done them the same. People say that you could destroy your motor if the wideband fails and goes super lean or super rich. that is their reason why to not do it... but with that reasoning you could also say "what if your fuel pump dies", or what if an injector dies. There are so many variables during a run that you could what if yourself to death. There's like 100 things that could destroy your motor.... i think keeping a fresh wideband in the car is key. After a year or so of race gas, replace it..... I still cannot see why you would not want EVER to run in closed loop. I need to get on yellowbullet and really discover why everyone is against it.... technology has come pretty far so why not use it to our advantage?????

[OutlawZ]

BTW Mike do you ALWAYS shutdown at the finish line and tow back to get a good read on all 8 plugs????

[Speed Inc.]

congrats

keep working on it and your goals will be reached

[claysdad]

Thanks for the compliments on the car. I originally bought the car because it worked so good. The plan was to change it over to a 6.0 but after I got it I fell in love with the LT and the challenge of running against the LS cars with my "old technology". I have a hell of an engine builder and the winter project is to go 396 unless Dart comes out with the new block I have been hearing about. I am shooting for 8's with the same top end and factory PCM.

[jakesz28]

I think it would be better to start to clean up the the fuel ring first. The thing to remember is fuel and timing go hand in hand. If you start to lean it out you generate more heat, the same goes for adding timing.

I beleave what kills most nitrous motors is timing. I have seen people run the kits recommended tune up and the porcelion deep inside the plug is just black. They tend to keep adding timing or don't pull enough to start. But when they decide to clean up the fuel ring they only adjust the fuel and leave the timing where it was. So when they remove fuel the timing bites them but they think they went lean. IF you have some heat on the plug and you decide to clean up the fuel just reemember to pull 2-3* of timing to go with it.


I usually just pull one plug and drive back. That is not ideal because I actually need to lower the timing in different cylinders. What I have seen s with an optiscope you can see the fuel ring deep inside the plug and that doesn't change much on the way back.(if you drive it) The timing mark gets a little sooted if you drive back on them.

[BLOWNDFIZ]

Also keep in mind that this being a fuel injected car and using the FAST XFI to datalog and track air fuel ratios. My car uses target af ratios and is run in closed loop by my tuner. I know everyone says that I have talked to that that is ludicrous to tune that way. But my tuner does a dry system on his nova that runs in the 7's, and tunes for several PSCA cars that also run in the 7's and low 8's.... and he's always done them the same. People say that you could destroy your motor if the wideband fails and goes super lean or super rich. that is their reason why to not do it... but with that reasoning you could also say "what if your fuel pump dies", or what if an injector dies. There are so many variables during a run that you could what if yourself to death. There's like 100 things that could destroy your motor.... i think keeping a fresh wideband in the car is key. After a year or so of race gas, replace it..... I still cannot see why you would not want EVER to run in closed loop. I need to get on yellowbullet and really discover why everyone is against it.... technology has come pretty far so why not use it to our advantage?????

I run in closed loop all of the time too. I completely agree with you that we should use that technology to our advantage. The key I think is to make sure that in closed loop the tune is close enough that the closed loop correction hardly ever comes into play @ WOT. In that case even if the sensor took a crap your VE table would be close enough (fingers crossed) to keep you safe. My current tune shows less than 1% corrections at WOT in closed loop so I feel pretty good with the tune.

By the way all of you are kicking ass! I'm enjoying watching this friendly competition! Keep it up!

[jakesz28]

The things I would question when running in closed loop are: The placement of the O2 sensor plays a roll in what the reading is, each motor will make or want a different AFR based on its own needs(so what AFR do you want to shoot for unless you first find what it needs by reading the plugs), what happens if you lose a spark plug or blow out the spark in one hole? What is the ecm going to do when it sees all the extra oxygen from that one cylinder. The AFR in the pipe is an average of four cylinders, if one is to rich or lean it will have to corect the average on those four cylinders.

[jakesz28]

hahaha yeah i know not all the iowa dudes are on the farm. only mike jakes... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.ls1tech.com/get/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_grin.gif


I saw that. :shame:

[OutlawZ]

I run in closed loop all of the time too. I completely agree with you that we should use that technology to our advantage. The key I think is to make sure that in closed loop the tune is close enough that the closed loop correction hardly ever comes into play @ WOT. In that case even if the sensor took a crap your VE table would be close enough (fingers crossed) to keep you safe. My current tune shows less than 1% corrections at WOT in closed loop so I feel pretty good with the tune

Yeah I think this argument will go on and on... While I do understand what many say about running in closed loop you're right about using it for correction factors but having it close enough that it won't matter.... My tuner typically shoots for + or - 3% correction when it's off from our target A/F ratio..... My tuner STILL says that engines on big shots of nitrous will not live at higher than 13:1 AF ratios that some are claiming they run.... I don't really know what to believe... All I can wonder is what people are using to track A/F ratios??? Widebands? A/F ratio meters (that have been known to be pretty cheap and off), or what else???

On my 300 shot pass my box was pulling out 10% to get back to 11.5:1 A/F.... So we're probably going to put a 73 nitrous jet in the plate on the 2nd stage and leave everything like it is (fueling and timing).... We're only running a very conservative 11 degrees. So we're going to look at what we got now and put a small amount more nitrous to it to see how much this time the box will pull out to correct to get to 11.5:1....


The things I would question when running in closed loop are: The placement of the O2 sensor plays a roll in what the reading is, each motor will make or want a different AFR based on its own needs(so what AFR do you want to shoot for unless you first find what it needs by reading the plugs), what happens if you lose a spark plug or blow out the spark in one hole? What is the ecm going to do when it sees all the extra oxygen from that one cylinder. The AFR in the pipe is an average of four cylinders, if one is to rich or lean it will have to corect the average on those four cylinders

I wonder the same thing... But I know people have been tuning with dyno's that use tailpipe A/F ratio probes for years... and it's an average as well... The collector is probably the closest you will get to accurate without actually being in the combustion chamber. I think reading the plugs combined with the wideband is the best idea... even better would be EGT probes in every header tube combined with the aforementioned two. The problem with finding out "what a motor needs" is the sweeping opinions as to what AF ratio works... A 23 degree motor is going to need a completely different setup than a big block, or an 18 degree headed motor, etc.... So even though people put up pictures of their plugs and one guy will be like "you're way rich" and another guy is like "you're dead on"..... both of those dudes don't always know what setup you have and what YOUR motor likes....

[jakesz28]

You'll get it I'm sure of that and if you trust your tuner use his experience and do what you feel comfortable with.