Big cube LTX motor

[JPack]

Gonna throw this out there but would there be any interest in a 4.200 bore LTX block? Yes that would work out to 430 cid with 4.22 bore. This would be an aftermarket block made exclusively for the shop that built my set up. This would be a well known and respected block manuf. Just curious what the interest is.

[Transamman25]

Cost ?? Jim, send me specific's !

[JPack]

PM sent.

[Transamman25]

Dude ya rock free bump for you !!

[joelster]

OMG yes!

DO IT!!!!!!!!!

[Fastbird]

That would be interesting, but I think it would leave the aftermarket head industry quite far behind.

[VendettaV8]

give more details man

[joelster]

That would be interesting, but I think it would leave the aftermarket head industry quite far behind.

Not for my 227's!!! They would love the extra breathing room the bigger bore would allow.

This block would have to have it's costs under control though. If you are talking over 3 grand, I just don't see the extra 30 or so cubes being worth it, even though it will be a lot stronger. Every now and then one of those fabled GM RaceShop blocks will pop up on ebay. The last one I saw went for $3050 iirc, and those are based on the BowTie block.

[Neil350]

More details.


Sean, if your willing to go after market on the block, whats $500 to convert some Gen I SBC heads?

[Blubird]

is there really ANY aftermarket parts available that would work on this build ?

[joelster]

is there really ANY aftermarket parts available that would work on this build ?

Well, an LT1 is basically a small block chevy with a different front section for the timing chain and opti-drive and a different water pump. They take the same crank, rods, pistons, oil pump, oil pan, bearings, etc..

Imagine throwing a big crank into one of these with a big bore and making a 434 out of it. Thats 51 more cubes than a 383 which is HUGE!

[Blubird]

i remember looking a while back and i didnt see a lot of cranks for lt1s,mostly just for gen I sbc

i thought you couldnt use the sbc crank cause it was a one piece rear main seal ?

[joelster]

LT1's are 1 piece rear mains there are lots of sbc's that are 1 piece also.

[JPack]

Quote from my builder "Have started the process of getting the ltx idea analyzed for engineering and cost analysis"

What he spec'd out for my questions was 750-800 rwhp.

These blocks would be licensed to my builder and they will have exclusive rights to them. My builder is a 70's top fueler and highly respected. Once I get more info I will post up. I will also give him a link to this thread so he can answer any questions you might have. I know that these blocks will be limited in quantity.

[Transamman25]

I plan on pushing one of these blocks to say 1100hp minimum thats at 12 psi , with the ability to push 20 psi with the twist of a boost controller ! Hell the my factory 4bolt LT1 has seen close to 900HP ,no problems after a few passes and a clutch break in.

[roadtrip120]

I would be interested, need more info.


Keep us posted

[Fastbird]

More details.


Sean, if your willing to go after market on the block, whats $500 to convert some Gen I SBC heads?

That's a good point, one I didn't even think of.

[Colossus]

So, what would this block do with a four inch stroke. I have a forged crank sitting in my room that I've been wanting to get rid of but I'd like to know how big this crank can make an engine with that kind of bore.

[JPack]

I would think a 434 would be a safe size. I have a message in to the builder and he should be able to answer any questions you may have. I don't want to answer questions for him as he is the one that came up with this and has the contacts to make this happen. I know he has a lot of other plans for our set ups as well. I know he and his son worked their magic on my set up and now with this it looks like I might be spending some more money. I know for sure 2 people are in line for this set up waiting on the word and to pull the trigger. This is just from our local car club guys. I personally can't wait for this to happen and am eger to see what you think of the other plans he has.

[joelster]

If he is getting the block from a reputable aftermarket manufacturer like you say, i'm assuming either Dart, Brodix, etc...Every one of their sbc blocks can easily go to 800rwhp.

Any sort of idea on the projected cost?
Any idea on when they will be completed?

For those that say "just go to an aftermarket sbc and convert some heads over". Well, then you don't have an LT1, period. You can't run an opti setup, you can't run the LT1 water pump, etc.. You might as well look into a BBC so you can have unlimited power if you are ditching the LT1.

[jakesz28]

Once you go this far how much of a LT1 is it. If building a 434 I guess you could keep the rpm's down and keep the opti. But must people are doing a crank trigger and just want to say they did it with a factory LT block to prove when done right they can keep up with the ls1 stuff.


I would love to go to an aftermarket block with a 9.3" deck and a large bore.

[joelster]

The big thing for me, is that the outward appearance would have to be identical, or very very close. I want people to look under the hood and know right away that it is an LT1. The water pump, and the top of the timing cover are a dead giveaway.

All things being equal a pretty stout 383 whether it's an LT1 or a sbc will make around 550-575 fwhp. The same setup with a 434 (again all things being equal) will make roughly 13-15% more power, or in the neighborhood of 610-650fwhp, give or take a little. If you were to ditch the opti, pcm, and go with a carb, and a nasty solid roller that 434 could make well over 700. Whack it with some nitrous.......

[My95Z]

If you were crazy enough to still street use that big cube block, the reverse cooling will come back into play over a SBC for running on pump gas.

[JPack]

The block would be identical to an lt1 appearence wise and would use the same front end parts, WP, cover etc.

[roadtrip120]

This would be an aftermarket block made exclusively for the shop that built my set up. .


who built your setup?

[jakesz28]

If your using a 9.0" deck it would be a waste. A 383 with a 6" rod and the pitons are borderline for heavy nitrous or boost use. A 434 and the tune has to be dead on it its time for new pistons.

[JPack]

Info asked from my engine builder....

If you were going to put one of these in your car would you want---

different k member/control arms
belt drive for a/c delete and alternator relocate
Coil on plug ignition
Crank trigger

[joelster]

For me personally I just want the damn cubes, lol.

Carb setup
434 inches
E85 with 13.5-1 compression
Big solid roller
regular distributor, 7500+ rpm

don't care about coil on plug, would go with an ICE ignition setup, possibly a crank trigger, but that is simple to add later.

ps, I already have tubular k-member and a-arms, and a low-mount alternator, no a/c or p/s.

[Puck]

Info asked from my engine builder....

If you were going to put one of these in your car would you want---

different k member/control arms
belt drive for a/c delete and alternator relocate
Coil on plug ignition
Crank trigger

I think the type of people looking at something like this would be more then willing and able to come up with their own means for coil on plug, crank trigger setups, and accesories location. In the scheme of things thats petty stuff to worry about if something huge like this were to become available. I think compatability with standard LT1 style(stock or UMI/BMR/etc's tubular) k-members would be a HUGE plus, and make a possible swap much less of a hassle for those interested.

My current build already did a great job of exhausting all my funds, but if I were looking for something like this personally I would just want Lt1 accessory compatibility, and the ability to use a stock style k-member. IMO if changing the accessories around, seting up COP ignition, and needing a new k-member was a neccessity, then it would just make more sense to go big cube LSX then investing so much into the niche LT1 market :).

If it was even "semi" drop in I could see a few of these selling, not just to F body guys but the hot rodders, car show competitors, and impala guys who are dying for big cube engines that have modern EFI practicality while keeping the nostalgic "SBC" look. Be honest - nothing looks better under the hood of a classic muscle car or hot rod then a big, shiney, polished up SBC/BBC. Not everyone is on the LSx bandwagon - there is still a big market for the old school crew that digs chrome waterpumps, braided plumbing and huge filters - not composite intakes, coils everywhere, and plastic covers hiding all the beauty :)

[joelster]

I was trying to understand why the builder was asking about this:



belt drive for a/c delete and alternator relocate

All I can think is that he wants to go with a taller deck, which would not allow the use of the stock alternator/ a/c bracket. Trust me, that won't be a problem at all. The coil on plug, and crank trigger scare me a bit though.

Is he going to ditch the opti? This block has to be able to use the stock LT1 cover (for me anyways) or it just isn't an LT1 anymore. I don't care of it is missing the drive for the water pump, because a $150 electric pump will fix that.

[JPack]

No, all brackets etc. would be used. I posted what he put on my car club forum which was more of a question for the local guys that would be having their set up built by the builder.

The crank trigger was more of a question on set up for possible oilin options with eiter a crank driven set up or dry sump. Those all play into what type of oil pan could be used. There is also investigation of a optional front cover for this set up for the above mention reasons.

All he wanted was a feel for what type of set ups people would use this block. Some will want to still use the opti, some may chose to use a standard dizzy. He is trying to cover all bases before he pulls the trigger and gets all these blocks made and into his possession. This is a major expense to get a lot of blocks custom made and a mistake could have a lot of expensive paper weights just sitting.

As I find out more details I will post them up as well as provide feed back from you all and your concerns and wants.

[Firebat]

Iron blocks, right?

[jakesz28]

Is he going with a standard deck? or a tall deck? Depending on deck height I might consider this again.

[JPack]

To answer some more questions, just got off the phone with him....

4 inch stroke crank can be used but would need small base circle cam and the correct rods for clearence.

Yes it would be iron block.

I didn't confirm deck height but assume they are trying to keep it stock height.

Also a quote from him....

"Have been working on a concept of a front crankshaft driven drysump oil pump for the lt engine similar to the one on the ls7 corvette--of course with this system worked out it could be used as a single wet sump also or as crankshaft vacume system"

Now the above is only a concept he is throwing around. He is waiting on a call back after the powers that be go over everything. They are getting closer.

[joelster]

To answer some more questions, just got off the phone with him....

4 inch stroke crank can be used but would need small base circle cam and the correct rods for clearence.

Yes it would be iron block.

I didn't confirm deck height but assume they are trying to keep it stock height.

Also a quote from him....

"Have been working on a concept of a front crankshaft driven drysump oil pump for the lt engine similar to the one on the ls7 corvette--of course with this system worked out it could be used as a single wet sump also or as crankshaft vacume system"

Now the above is only a concept he is throwing around. He is waiting on a call back after the powers that be go over everything. They are getting closer.

Go calll him back and tell him to hurry his ass up! LOL. Ask him if he has any idea on a ballpark price too.

[JPack]

Ball park cheaper than the little M :)

[joelster]

Ball park cheaper than the little M :)

If that is the case I am so in! Money in hand.

It costs at least $1000 just to use a stock LT1 block, to have it bored, clearanced, drilled for 4-bolt caps, etc.....You are talking not too much more money for the potential to have a hell of a lot more power, not to mention the block itself is light years stronger to begin with.

[flippy1974]

i guess im in the market too !

[Transamman25]

Awwww sookie sookie I'm druiling already !! It only brings to mind one thing !
YouTube - Lets get ready to rumble

[joelster]

Ok, i'm stoked about the pricing of it.

Now........when are they going to be made? Any idea at all? I have a nice set of big AFR's sitting here, and I can't buy another part until I know what direction the shortblock is going to take.

[JPack]

I will know more next week. Something like this doesn't come over night but should have an answer soon. Man, why did I just build this new set up....RRRRR Although 492/541 is still a good number N/A on a little 355. Why do I keep getting these visions of a 434 with twins....... My wife is gonna kill me!

[James Montigny]

Subscribing ... I want to see where this goes.

[JPack]

Still working on it. Supplier has been in Gainsville but they have spoke with other big shops and got a very enthusiastic response from them as well. Lot of work to get this done. Hopefully this will happen soon. I will keep those that have pm'd me and others in this post in the loop as I find out more info.

[JPack]

Anyone have a stock LT1 around the Detroit area that measurements and patterns can be taken from. Just need the block. Let me know asap!

[roadtrip120]

Not for my 227's!!! They would love the extra breathing room the bigger bore would allow.

This block would have to have it's costs under control though. If you are talking over 3 grand, I just don't see the extra 30 or so cubes being worth it, even though it will be a lot stronger. Every now and then one of those fabled GM RaceShop blocks will pop up on ebay. The last one I saw went for $3050 iirc, and those are based on the BowTie block.




Most aftermarket race big cube block cost in the 1500-5500 range, depending on steal or aluminum. As long as its in that same range i'm sure it will sell to the serious customers

[roadtrip120]

Anyone have a stock LT1 around the Detroit area that measurements and patterns can be taken from. Just need the block. Let me know asap!


I think Taner does

[Jerry Clayton]

Update----just talked to my guy at Dart who is on this project with us---and he is the guy who JAKEJR talked to on Friday---A guy from Michingan is coming to pick up the block and front cover that JPACK has--

I went to the Chev dealer here to search for a block and they are not serviced anymore---

SO----this is taking root pretty good and maybe we'll get a blossom soon.

Jerry

[Biggin'89]

I will deff. be interested in one of these as well, it if makes it to production. So you can add my name to the list as long as the block will be suitable for boost:D

[FORMULA94]

if i had the funds for such a build, id be in without any problems. but i won't be able to jump in on it. but i wish good luck to those who get these blocks.

[Jerry Clayton]

you all need to remember---not only is this block an update on size/performance---it is an block that you can use for rebuilds----GM no longer services the factory block and every car that they put an LT in is a special/classic/owners pride and joy type car that most will want to maintain in at the very least a visual stock appearance

[Bad94]

So would my 9 mile long block be something that would help?

Been sitting since 1996

Look at all the paint still on the pulleys
http://s-seriesforum.com/albums/album432/2_24_010.sized.jpg
http://s-seriesforum.com/albums/album432/2_24_009.sized.jpg
So clean
http://s-seriesforum.com/albums/album432/2_24_007.sized.jpg

Hmmm, my ported LT4 heads would be nice on a big CI.

[Jerry Clayton]

wow--that would be a help but we already have a bare block and front cover---would like to have a water pump, but we;ll find one so that you won't need to take yours apart---however, yours might be handy before its all over so they can see the whole accessory package

[JPack]

Update....

I dropped the block and front cover off tonight. Should be in Darts hands soon. And so it begins......

[Bad94]

wow--that would be a help but we already have a bare block and front cover---would like to have a water pump, but we;ll find one so that you won't need to take yours apart---however, yours might be handy before its all over so they can see the whole accessory package


I might still have a spare water pump, i will look for it.

[Jerry Clayton]

Thanks for bringing the block Jim and Bad94, let us know about the water pump


Jerry

[Biggin'89]

do we have a projected price for this? i saw the other guys thread was saying 1k-1.5k

[Jerry Clayton]

Go to www.Dartheads.com (http://www.Dartheads.com) and to contact us-----tell them about your car and thoughts about producing this SHP LTx block-- as they produce the Gen 1 in 4 inch and 4.125 bore size I'm thinking that they might make a few of these as a 4 inch bore but I see the most guys buying it at 4.125----

For those of you concerned about cylinder heads----relate whate you would like to see, but do remember that they have some super blocks for racing and that this one should be targeted to the replacement, moderate, stock appearing , street driven cars---Corvettes, Camaro, Firebird, Impala SS, Roadmaster, Fleetwood----
They will be monitering the replys so let them know who you are, your return address,type of car and driving, etc

Jerry Clayton

[1FASTSS]

Go to www.Dartheads.com (http://www.Dartheads.com) and to contact us-----tell them about your car and thoughts about producing this SHP LTx block-- as they produce the Gen 1 in 4 inch and 4.125 bore size I'm thinking that they might make a few of these as a 4 inch bore but I see the most guys buying it at 4.125----

For those of you concerned about cylinder heads----relate whate you would like to see, but do remember that they have some super blocks for racing and that this one should be targeted to the replacement, moderate, stock appearing , street driven cars---Corvettes, Camaro, Firebird, Impala SS, Roadmaster, Fleetwood----
They will be monitering the replys so let them know who you are, your return address,type of car and driving, etc

Jerry Clayton

So we need to start bugging Dart to make this? I think if they were to make it they would have many buyers for it concreting the fact LT blocks are getting harder to come by now.

[Jerry Clayton]

Dart is asking opinions----go to www.dartheads.com (http://www.dartheads.com), join up and vote on SHP LT block poll----this will be a major thing for the car enthusiests with LT powered vehicles---I have only been able to chase down 6 new LT blocks and junkyard cores are almost impossible to get a good one

go there and be counted


Jerry

[Bad94]

I dont have that spare water pump anymore.


If these blocks do get made im thinking about doing a 427 CI for my 1969 Nova, im building.

[Biggin'89]

one thing to ask for is that it will clear a 4" stroke. it seems that the other sbc's are only toleranced for a 3.750 stroke.

[Chris]

Here is the specific link ! Took all but 1-2min to vote after registering

http://www.dartheads.com/dartboard/showthread.php?p=4630#post4630

[joelster]

Just posted on there. Looks like it's 13W and 1L so far, lol.

[jakesz28]

I just voted and mentioned something about a taller deck height. That is something all of you guys will need if your going with a stroke longer then 3.75" and want to run a power adder. You need to maintain a good pin height and ring package. I will not be suprised if I lift a ring land this year and I'm running custom Wiseco (nitrous) pistons. With the 6" rod and a large valve releif I'm running the piston is thin in that area.

[JAKEJR]

I talked to Dart's Tech Support a couple of days ago about this and Rick suggested that parties send a message to Dart using the "Contact Us" button on their site.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

[joelster]

I sent them an email through the "contact us" link. It only takes a minute guys.

BTW the score on the feedback for a SHP LT1 block is 67W-3L


:)

[aboatguy]

If the price truly is less than little M and if it is truly a bolt in (stock heads, acessories, etc bolt on) I'd probably use one on my next build

[joelster]

Post #83 on there doesn't look too promising.

[1FASTSS]

Post #83 on there doesn't look too promising.

These things take time. Sometime more time than we are allowed to wait for a block like this to be made.

I don't think it bad, just honest. The are just gathering info right now is all.

[JPack]

They are gathering info and have my extra block and front cover for measurements. :popcorn:

[MEAN LT1]

Nice.

[Puck]

They are gathering info and have my extra block and front cover for measurements. :popcorn:

Breathed some life into the thread over at Dart's.

[joelster]

How much fucking info do they need? I mean seriously....an LT1 block is like 90% IDENTICAL to an SBC block. Jesus, build the god-damn thing already.

[Puck]

How much fucking info do they need? I mean seriously....an LT1 block is like 90% IDENTICAL to an SBC block. Jesus, build the god-damn thing already.

Seriously! :laugh:

[Jerry Clayton]

Dart has notified us that they are going to do the LT SHP block and we should have the first ones in about 6-8 weeks

Thanks for every bodies support in getting this done----

Jerry

[1SlowFormula]

I read the news clip on the Dart site, but it doesn't specify if it will have the bigger bore available, just that they are going to buld and LT1 SHP block, are we sure this is the bigger bore block?

[Jerry Clayton]

yes , we are sure----Comes at 4.115 for a piston fitting .010 to get it at 4.125 bore--will have around .200 wall thickness out to 4.200 bore---I think 427 inches with 3.875 stroke.
We have done some 4.125 stuff with a 3.75 lite weight 2.0 rod size 41 lb crank in the SHP block for some racers in the south west---very lite weight recip parts are available--same will work here

[1SlowFormula]

yes , we are sure----Comes at 4.115 for a piston fitting .010 to get it at 4.125 bore--will have around .200 wall thickness out to 4.200 bore---I think 427 inches with 3.875 stroke.
We have done some 4.125 stuff with a 3.75 lite weight 2.0 rod size 41 lb crank in the SHP block for some racers in the south west---very lite weight recip parts are available--same will work here

hey Jerry, are you the same user as Y BE AVG on LS1 tech and the modular ford boards?

if so can you send me details on getting my hands on one of these blocks...

[JPack]

YBEAVG is Corey his son.

[1FASTSS]

If this is true then I am selling my block and getting this block for big cube n20 motor. Looking forward to pricing on the block.

[1SlowFormula]

thanks Jpack, you've got a PM. I already email'd Corey, so I hope I'm on the list...

[JPack]

Replied ;)

[Ponyhntr]

In for updates....

[tomsws6]

ttt

[ggrrssyydik]

i would be interested in this. woul dlove to have a 427 motor. but being in the nice stat of CA i would need it to look stock on the ouitside, be able to bolt all my accesories, would like to be able to pass tail pipe but i guess that can be taken care off anyways.
how much are we looking for one of this block. not ready for a build now, but if i have to i will buy this block and build it later.

[tomsws6]

my understanding is that the block will be under 2k

[Jerry Clayton]

Final pricing hasn't been detrmined buy we are hoping to be similar to the other SHP blocks---under 2k--

[flippy1974]

any update on this ?

[19mike84]

i heard that the aftermarket block was scrapped. there wasnt enough interest for them to risk making a bunch of blocks and having no buyers.

[JPack]

Yup, worked hard to get it done with the right people and they announced it would be a for sure. Was in developement and then out of left field shitcanned it. Still have yet to get my block back from them that was used for making this happen. Kinda pissed about the whole deal. Got my front cover back but nothing else.

[flippy1974]

dam thats bullshit !