AI, LE, whoever....

[Pro-jection Eng]

Right they're doing great things with a factory LT1 head, but why so expensive? I'm beyond factory castings now, so I don't really care anymore. LE hand ports, got it. Labor intensive, expensive. AI has a CNC program for their heads, so why do a set of CNC'd LT1 heads cost 1900, but a set of PRC 5.3s that make 500+rwhp cost 1200 bucks? Argue away :claps:

[BigBitch97Z]

The materials that go into a set of LE or AI heads cost money. You obviously have never priced the cost of valves, springs, seats, milling machines, valve jobs, and all the hours that are spent on these heads. Show me PRC 5.3s on a street driven LT1.... you can't. They are for a fucking LS1.

[Fastbird]

I've wondered this myself, and have concluded it's come down to supply and demand, both of which go to the Gen III/IV stuff.

[Pro-jection Eng]

The materials that go into a set of LE or AI heads cost money. You obviously have never priced the cost of valves, springs, seats, milling machines, valve jobs, and all the hours that are spent on these heads. Show me PRC 5.3s on a street driven LT1.... you can't. They are for a fucking LS1.

you sir are a moron

[Pro-jection Eng]

i really think that the only reason AIs stuff costs as much as it does is because its what LE charges, sure they could undercut it by alot, but there's money to be made.

[Z28pr0jekt]

Can't really argue with results though, the LS may be a cheaper platform but that's because there are more companies marketing for it... Who are our options out there for good reputable porting with tons of results... LE or AI... as Fastbird said, supply and demand..
We have 2 main suppliers so they control the market.

[ksmyss]

you also have to look at the lt1. its just a version of the sbc and used in 3 platforms for a short time. the ls1 is the next sbc. used in a ton of platforms and multiple sizes and configurations that all use the same parts. just look at home many head choices there are from the factory. we have 3, stock aluminum, cast iron (off the impalas) and the lt4 which is pretty much non existant from gm anymore.

[catchmyz]

The amount of time it takes for a single head to be ported in the way AI ports is considerable. Due to tool deflection it takes several passes on the machine to port a head to a consistent result that will net not only increased flow and increased horsepower but is reproducible. Taking this in to consideration along with the initial start up cost of purchasing the machines to do the job is why there prices seem high. Keep in mind too that its not pure profit, there heads come complete and also with a billet core camshaft. Here is a few pics of mine.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/Catchmyz/100_1045-1.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/Catchmyz/100_1046.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/Catchmyz/100_1044.jpg

[BigBitch97Z]

you sir are a moron

So you're saying there is no HP to be made for a decent cost in the LT1?

[Grr]

There really is no reason ported stockers from AI or LE should be that expensive. If a company like AFR can do everything they do, but on top of that pour their own castings for a similar price just means AI and LE are screwing people. But if people are willing to pay thats their deal. Fact is your giving them the head and they are providing a service that is the same as if you had a LS head or SBC head ported, for around $1k, not $2k+

[1hottcamaro]

I went with A.I. and I didnt like the prices, and I really didnt know why the prices were that high, but I knew what I wanted and I had compared them to LE prices, and I just figured thats the average price of this stuff.. but I really dont fully understand everything they do, (I am still learning about it)

[96lt1m6]

AI does CNC portwork first then they get touched up by hand. there is a great deal of work that goes into these heads! the proof is from the results of their customers timeslips rarely lie,speed costs!
How much would you expect to spend to drop 2+ seconds in the 1/4 mile
on a 3500 lb car? hmmmm lets see: stock ET of 14.00

Lt headers full exhaust 800.00 est
pcm tune,tune up 250.00 est
cai 180.00 est
stall 575.00 min
drs 350.00 roughly
1-2 sec. gain or more:hail:

[95z28man]

What are these PRC 5.3's you speak of? I've never heard of them but 500+rwhp for $1200 seems like it would hard to miss lol.

[Fastbird]

What are these PRC 5.3's you speak of? I've never heard of them but 500+rwhp for $1200 seems like it would hard to miss lol.

They're Gen III heads, 5.3 liter truck heads ported by PRC sold by Texas-Speed.

[AChotrod]

LE also uses 2 different CNC machines and then as Lloyd put it " I connect the dots by hand"
It takes a very very long time to get them all ported out, valve job, parts, cost of equipment etc. Money per hour spent on them is about right. Then they need to make some profit also. Not to mention they flow better than most Aftermarket heads out of the box. Plus you get a custom cam and complete heads.
LE and AI are not getting rich by doing this if thats what you think.

Also most people that buy aftermarket heads send them to LE or AI to get them ported out anyways, since ported stockers flow better than most out of the box, so its double the cost. That only makes sense if your shooting for the stars and tring to set records.

[BigBitch97Z]

Ummm the LE2 heads are not 2k+. They are 1350.... your costs are misquoted.

[AChotrod]

With a custom cam and if he supplies the heads its 2k.
If you supply them and just have them ported its 1350 but thats still includes the valves, seals, springs, retainers ,locks etc. In the end its a great price IMO

[BigBitch97Z]

So these PRC heads are 1200$ with springs, cores, portwork, and the cam?

[Fastbird]

So these PRC heads are 1200$ with springs, cores, portwork, and the cam?

Put those out of your mind. They're LS1 heads.

http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=84&catid=20 Just the heads with valvetrain. No cam.

[96lt1m6]

Hey it's a new 5.3L Lt1 :laugh:
yeah just totally forget about those heads and that price....

[Pro-jection Eng]

I said meangreen was a moron because no shit a 5.3 head is for an LS1. point is, 1200 bucks for a head that can make 500 rwhp, no core charge. 227 cnc'd afr head less than 1900 bucks and more potential than a LTX style intake. Like it was mentioned earlier, aftermarket heads have to be cast and then CNC'd. I doubt AI or LE put more time/materials into their heads than it takes for a whole head to be produced from scratch.

[Grr]

Exactly what i was saying. If you can go buy a completely new assembled head with full porting for the same price or just a couple hundred more than a shitty 15 year old GM casting, that is just rediculous. You are buying alot more with the aftermarket heads than flow #s, they are far superior in every way.

[Green96Z]

Comparing the LS market with the LT market, and not to mention prices, is apples to oranges. The LS market is no doubt the preferred area of parts for many performance manufacturers, and the fact of the matter is supply and demand (as already stated). The LT market, on the other hand, seems hung out to dry. Not many off-the-shelf LT1 heads can compete with the flow numbers of AI or LE ported heads, which in itself is worth the price. Yes their prices are high, but they are both highly experienced, and dyno numbers speak for themselves.

By the way, saying "5.3 heads making over 500+" and daring to compare that to HP numbers of a ported LT1 head is ridiculous. The LS1 and LT1 are different animals, and its high time everyone stop comparing their parts side-by-side.

[joelster]

There really is no reason ported stockers from AI or LE should be that expensive. If a company like AFR can do everything they do, but on top of that pour their own castings for a similar price just means AI and LE are screwing people. But if people are willing to pay thats their deal. Fact is your giving them the head and they are providing a service that is the same as if you had a LS head or SBC head ported, for around $1k, not $2k+

Ding! We have a winner!

Exactly the reason I went with the aftermarket AFR's. The combo's that you see from AI and LE make a substantial amount of power, but a lot of that is due to the excellent cam choices they match with their heads. Each of their cams literally blows away the Comp Cams 503, 306, GM 847 stuff which has been out for years and years.

When you open up a factory casting out to 200cc+, you have weakened it and compromised it. GM built it to be 170cc with a certain thickness on the deck, the sides of the ports , the stud area, etc... When you open it up, everything gets thinner. Every aftermarket head, whether it be AFR, TFS, Dart, Edelbrock, starts with a fresh slate. They KNOW their stuff is going to be on a hot motor, They KNOW their stuf may be sprayed with a 250 shot, or put under 10lbs of boost. They take these things into consideration. I will weigh my AFR's (227) next to a factory piece someday. My AFR's are right around 30lbs apiece assembled.

I have no problem with paying good money for a hand ported head. I do have a problem with paying top dollar for a stock casting that is cnc'd. Once a company has a profile that they like, it's simply a matter of programming it in, and then mounting the head in the fixture on the 5-axis machine. Then you push the green button.

[AChotrod]

Sure LS1 heads flow better and there are millions around + they are still in use and our heads havent been made in a long long time.
The stock heads are alot more capable then people give them credit for.
I think you guys have no idea what goes into the heads and the time it takes.
Theres guys running 10s NA on stock heads in street cars just look at Larry's from speedinc car, hell even stock unported heads can go 10s in a race car with a stock style cam. See Gizmos car on LS1tech.
The only time I think you need aftermarket heads is if your planning on running mid 9s or better.
As far as AI & LEs pricing goes, you get what you pay for. I never heard of one person that bought them feel like they got ripped off.

[1FASTSS]

It will be interesting to see what the AI TFS 21* head will go for when it comes out. They do get very good results from the stock ported heads and there pricing is more of a package deal...heads w/matching cam. We can't argue that LSx heads are vastly superior to ours and we can only dream of getting a head like that at those prices!



You can just do the LS swap and then you have all kinds of choices.

[AChotrod]

Yes those AI TFS heads do look very interesting!!

[1FASTSS]

Yes those AI TFS heads do look very interesting!!

They have very high hopes for these...355ci/ SR with these heads would hit 500rwhp...that is something I would like to see:hail:

[AChotrod]

Thats something I would like to own!!:shiner: But untill then Im happy with what I got:peace2:

[Fastbird]

They have very high hopes for these...355ci/ SR with these heads would hit 500rwhp...that is something I would like to see:hail:

Didn't an AI 200CC LT1 casting SR 355 just do upper 400's not too terribly long ago?

[BigBitch97Z]

Put those out of your mind. They're LS1 heads.

http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=84&catid=20 Just the heads with valvetrain. No cam.

I knew that... just wanted to know what you get for the price.


Hey it's a new 5.3L Lt1 :laugh:
yeah just totally forget about those heads and that price....

I never said it was for a lt1.


I said meangreen was a moron because no shit a 5.3 head is for an LS1. point is, 1200 bucks for a head that can make 500 rwhp, no core charge. 227 cnc'd afr head less than 1900 bucks and more potential than a LTX style intake. Like it was mentioned earlier, aftermarket heads have to be cast and then CNC'd. I doubt AI or LE put more time/materials into their heads than it takes for a whole head to be produced from scratch.

Then go buy an ls1... jackass.

[1FASTSS]

Didn't an AI 200CC LT1 casting SR 355 just do upper 400's not too terribly long ago?

They've told me before that their 200cc heads would only do 450rwhp with a SR. I haven't seen any setup's myself.

[Fastbird]

They've told me before that their 200cc heads would only do 450rwhp with a SR. I haven't seen any setup's myself.

Check CamaroZ28......guy on there laid like 475 at the wheels. 355 SR AI200CC LT1 casting.

*Edit* Looks like he got to 500. Really well thought out setup.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=485215&highlight=200CC+SR

[Pro-jection Eng]

not holding my breath for an AI trickflow here. don't wanna spend 1500 for their cnc porting, then spend 1500 converting a manifold. id rather run a brodix 18x topend if i wanted to get away from a 23 degree head.