Stainless Or Ceramic Headers

[Darkknight039]

I'm in the market for some long tubes for my LT1 stroker Camaro.
im not sure what to get. Currently I have ceramic Hooker shorties on it that have held up for over 10 years now except for the y-pipe. I'm not sure if I should stick with ceramic or go stainless.

Kooks are are way out of my price range for stainless but has anyone ever heard of
XS Power, Phab and Pro Tuning lab stainless long tubes? Are they any good?

Thanks.

[harner]

I would go the stainless route. My painted Hooker's held up ok for a few years and if I ever replace the, it'll be with stainless.

There are some vendors on this site that can hook you up. LPP is a popular option for LT1 stainless. OBX is sold via American-Powerhouse and is a decent option. I've heard of XS Power in other car realms and they are popular. Never heard of Phab and Pro Tuning.

[Darkknight039]

Thanks for the info.
I emailed LPP.
Phab seems to only be sold on eBay.
Pro Tuning Labs just came up on a search but they seem way too cheap.
XS Power seems to be pretty popular but I haven't seen anyone use them on a 4th gen.
What about Speed Engineering?

[harner]

I rank XS Power and Speed Engineering in the same category. Made in China, may not be perfect but a decent budget option. I personally ran OBX on my TBSS for years and loved the fitment and quality. OBX is China as well, but the Vette, TBSS, and Fbody worlds usually give them a thumbs up unless there's a "Made In China vs. USA" dispute.

I would go LPP with OBX being a close second, personally.

[Dan]

I'm pretty sure XS powers are not made in China, I believe Georgia? XS power is 321 stainless steel as well I think... They are practically identical to Kooks and LPPs.

Edit: Looks like they are made in China.. They fooled me. The welds and the overall design on them is amazing..

[97firehawk]

Xs power makes the LPP headers for LPP . Ceramic coating on mild steel header will rust and look like shit at some point , mine did .

I now have LPP headers and I am very pleased with them.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[harner]

Not all products from China are total junk. As long as the seller does quality checks periodically to test fitment, welds, etc - they should be fine. Stainless Works now sells Chinese-manufactured stainless LT's to compete with their premium American-made headers as well as Kooks, etc. Not sure if they make them for LT1's, but they do for 5th gens.

Also, Texas Speed is a company I'd shy away from if you look at their budget stainless LT's. I saw some recent quality issues on FB that is not appealing. Not sure if they ever straightened it out with the customer...

[Darkknight039]

If XS Power makes LPP headers I found them almost $100 cheaper from XS Power.
Harner has a point, Japan has made the best electronics for years.
Kooks and Stainless Works are out of my price range. It's not a track car or race car, just my fun car.

[97firehawk]

I'm not sure it the xspower brand are the same quality as the xspower /LPP headers as far as quality of stainless steel and murge spike so on and so on.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Darkknight039]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVY-Camaro-LT1-Longtube-Exhaust-Headers-SS-Z28-93-97-/121526115233

They seem like it to me...

[Dan]

http://shop.huronspeedproducts.com/XS-Power-LT1-F-body-Longtube-Header-System-xsplt1.htm (if I'm not allowed to post links from a non sponsor sorry)
These are what I have. The ones you linked are pretty much identical, except mine are not stamped with XS power. Mine are polished and looks a hell of a lot better than those.
The ebay add says they are based off hookers. They look nothing like hooker headers. They are kooks. I wouldn't buy those..

[gmpowered]

I'm in the market for some long tubes for my LT1 stroker Camaro.
im not sure what to get. Currently I have ceramic Hooker shorties on it that have held up for over 10 years now except for the y-pipe. I'm not sure if I should stick with ceramic or go stainless.

Kooks are are way out of my price range for stainless but has anyone ever heard of
XS Power, Phab and Pro Tuning lab stainless long tubes? Are they any good?

Thanks.

Ive run the cheap ebay stainless headers and have been happy with them on other makes and models. For the Price The Fit and Durability are awesome. They do not keep a good look after several years. You would have to polish them.
One thing i have noticed is how freakin hot stainless gets. Ceramic headers wont do that.

I run pacesetters on my camaro, they have been on for years now and are rusting to shit. When i replace them they will be ceramic coated.

[Darkknight039]

Yes, I understand I'd have to wrap them if I go stainless.
I have Hooker shorty ceramics now and they look pretty good for being over 10 years old. The y-pipe is rusting out though.
Does ceramic really make that much of a difference?
now I'm having second thoughts.

[LT slow]

When i get ready to pull my engine I plan on swapping out to stainless even though my painted PS headers have held up awesome after I painted them with some header paint.

[Dan]

You don't need to wrap stainless headers... Guy I know has been running LPPs for over a year with 24x conversion. He hasn't burned any wires or had any header related problems.

If you are worried about burning wires just put sleeves over the wires.. I'm currently running BBK shorties chrome headers. Haven't burned any wires on my OTVC setup.

I bought stainless because if the price I got them at. Do what your budget allows

[Darkknight039]

TSP is offering stainless long tubes for $260.

[casey20000007]

TSP is offering stainless long tubes for $260.

Are tsp headers worth a crap


Smoke tires not drugs

[Darkknight039]

Are tsp headers worth a crap


Smoke tires not drugs

Anyway, if we're done quoting t-shirts and stickers...

[Dan]

TSPs are made from 304 SS I believe. They will not last long. Don't cheap out, get LPPs. He's selling them for 550 IIRC.

[Darkknight039]

I'm pretty sure that Kooks uses 304, I think.

[97firehawk]

LPPs are 321

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[gmpowered]

TSPs are made from 304 SS I believe. They will not last long. Don't cheap out, get LPPs. He's selling them for 550 IIRC.

Whats wrong with 304ss? especially compared to 321? The only applicable differences im aware of is salt corrosion resistance where the 304 is superior.

There is a big difference between stainless and coated, but does it really affect performance and functionality? Not really. The ceramic coated will keep more heat out of the engine bay and ever so slightly move more hot exhaust compared to the stainless. Again for the price there is no real proven performance gains from one or the other. Some people have said when running ceramic is that ects iats run cooler along with being able to touch parts of the engine bay(without burning their hand) that they couldn't before which i believe.

[Darkknight039]

From what I understand, most stainless headers are made from 304 because it's easier to bend, welds easier and better and still offers excellent corrosion resistance. 321 is a better grade because it has a higher corrosion resistance and it is harder steel but it makes it more prone to cracking than 304.

I talked to both Kooks and Stainless Works and they both manufacture all there products using 304 for those reasons.

[97firehawk]

Burns Stainless LLC - Stainless Steel
http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


Educate.

[gmpowered]

From what I understand, most stainless headers are made from 304 because it's easier to bend, welds easier and better and still offers excellent corrosion resistance. 321 is a better grade because it has a higher corrosion resistance and it is harder steel but it makes it more prone to cracking than 304.

I talked to both Kooks and Stainless Works and they both manufacture all there products using 304 for those reasons.
When talking stainless steels things can get complicated, The 304 should be used on lower temp manifolds, if using a turbo the 304 loses its corrosion resistance and the 321 outperforms it when getting into turbo temps with corrosion and "physical integrity".

Both metals have different properties at different temps.

Kooks uses it because its cheaper to use period. Its not needed until you get to turbo temps.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx

"Within the 300 series of stainless steels, there are four types that are suitable, available and cost effective for the racer. These are 304, 316L, 321, and 347.

321 and 347 are known as stabilized grades of stainless. These are alloyed with either titanium (321) or columbium (347), both of which have a much stronger affinity for carbon than does chromium at elevated temperatures. This eliminates carbide precipitation leaving the chromium where it belongs for corrosion protection...remember our discussion of intergranular corrosion? Both 321 and 347 are top choices for exhaust headers, especially turbocharger systems and rotary engines. Since 321 is much more available than 347, that leaves 321 as the first choice, with no sacrifice in needed qualities.

316L is an extra low carbon (ELC) grade of stainless that has only .03% carbon, making less carbon available to precipitate with the chromium. It is used extensively in marine exhausts where salt water corrosion mixed with diesel exhaust particulates and electrolysis create such a horrible environment that even other grades of stainless cower and run away!
304 is the most inexpensive and available stainless in the 300 series. It is suitable for normally-aspirated header applications, and has been successfully used by many racing teams. It does not have the high temperature fatigue resistance that 321 does, but is considerably less costly and much more available. Most 304 tubing these days has the dual designation of 304/304L.

Practically speaking, there are overlapping applications of 304 and 321 stainless in header construction, but knowing you've got the insurance of the aircraft-grade 321 for the job is definitely worth consideration of the extra cost... if your application requires it."

[Darkknight039]

Burns Stainless LLC - Stainless Steel
http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


Educate.

Enough of the quips. You think I smoke drugs and now learning impaired. I get it.

[Darkknight039]

When talking stainless steels things can get complicated, The 304 should be used on lower temp manifolds, if using a turbo the 304 loses its corrosion resistance and the 321 outperforms it when getting into turbo temps with corrosion and "physical integrity".

Both metals have different properties at different temps.

Kooks uses it because its cheaper to use period. Its not needed until you get to turbo temps.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx

"Within the 300 series of stainless steels, there are four types that are suitable, available and cost effective for the racer. These are 304, 316L, 321, and 347.


321 and 347 are known as stabilized grades of stainless. These are alloyed with either titanium (321) or columbium (347), both of which have a much stronger affinity for carbon than does chromium at elevated temperatures. This eliminates carbide precipitation leaving the chromium where it belongs for corrosion protection...remember our discussion of intergranular corrosion? Both 321 and 347 are top choices for exhaust headers, especially turbocharger systems and rotary engines. Since 321 is much more available than 347, that leaves 321 as the first choice, with no sacrifice in needed qualities.

316L is an extra low carbon (ELC) grade of stainless that has only .03% carbon, making less carbon available to precipitate with the chromium. It is used extensively in marine exhausts where salt water corrosion mixed with diesel exhaust particulates and electrolysis create such a horrible environment that even other grades of stainless cower and run away!
304 is the most inexpensive and available stainless in the 300 series. It is suitable for normally-aspirated header applications, and has been successfully used by many racing teams. It does not have the high temperature fatigue resistance that 321 does, but is considerably less costly and much more available. Most 304 tubing these days has the dual designation of 304/304L.

Practically speaking, there are overlapping applications of 304 and 321 stainless in header construction, but knowing you've got the insurance of the aircraft-grade 321 for the job is definitely worth consideration of the extra cost... if your application requires it."





Yes, I understand that and I think it's along the lines of what I said. The last line seems to sum up what I thought. I called Burns and asked them about 321 being prone to cracking. They said its recommended on forced induction applications especially with turbos due to the intense temperature cycles put on the headers. However they added that any header can be susceptible to cracking. It depends on the header material selected and what application it is put on.

[Darkknight039]

I should probably mention that I am not supercharged, turbo or nitrous. Naturally aspirated 383 stroker.

Looking at the thermal properties between 304 and 321 the difference isn't as big as I thought. So my next question would be is how much heat difference is there between ceramic and SS? Do they need to be wrapped? I've seen a lot of cars running them without wrap.

[97firehawk]

Enough of the quips. You think I smoke drugs and now learning impaired. I get it.
Looking that way , now you are not making sense.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Darkknight039]

Does 321 ss contain heat better than 304?

[firebird_1995]

Any difference in heat retention between the two would be minimal.

[Darkknight039]

What's the heat difference between SS and ceramic?

[firebird_1995]

Ceramic coated anything is going to retain heat in the exhaust tubing longer than any material not coated.

[Darkknight039]

Right, I know. I was just wondering how much of it difference it made.

[Darkknight039]

From what I can tell its between 200 and 300 degrees.

[shownomercy]

lulz at anyone caring what grade SS the chinaman uses to make headers with.

[SSlowBoat]

lulz at anyone caring what grade SS the chinaman uses to make headers with.
That's like asking which type of cat tastes better

[shownomercy]

That's like asking which type of cat tastes better

Pretty much, gonna ask for material certs next too?

[Darkknight039]

Golly, gee...Does anyone know the "material certs" ??

[shownomercy]

Of a cheap set from China? I doubt even they know what they are using.

Ask Kooks and ARH and you may get something. Everything we get in the door at work comes with certs.

[gmpowered]

lulz at anyone caring what grade SS the chinaman uses to make headers with.

Its more of a comparison between kooks(USA MADE) and knock offs("chinaman") headers.


Sometimes the devil is in the details for example simple valve lash and collapsing lifters.

While i agree imported headers probably do not use the claimed superior material, bashing other peoples curiosity on why or how certain materials are used is cool now?

[Darkknight039]

Sorry, that was actually more of a joke. I've heard some say that China has improved a lot in their quality of steel mostly because they now import some of it from the U.S.

[shownomercy]

I am not bashing at all, merely pointing out the irony in caring what material a sub standard part may or may not be made of.

Without any proof of material I could claim my headers are made of 6AL-v etc.

Curious what valve lash and or lifter have anything to do with this though.

[Darkknight039]

And from my searches, a lot of people that have received and installed headers from XS Power and LPP seem to be very impressed and satisfied with them. Although most seem to be from 2010 onward so maybe that's when they started improving.