Catmaigne's "LolT1" Budget Boost Buildup

[Catmaigne]

Shortblock build page http://www.ellweinengines.com/ERE60/ERE60.htm

Let me start out by saying that I've considered swapping to LS countless times and I've had it. There's so much character with these cars and a turbo 5.3 swap seems like a total cop out. Having said that, I set out to boost the ole LT1 and not totally break the bank. Hell, it might even win a race or two.

This car is going to be one giant compromise... a jack of all trades but master of none. It's just the way it has to be. I can't afford a fun car for the street, one for serious drag, and another for the road course. The ultimate goal is something that can make good power, fly down the 1/4, and run a decent lap time, all while being liveable enough to drive to the occasional car meet or roadtrip on the highway. 600rwhp should be attainable, I should be able to take a corner with some good tires, and < 9.99 ET will take effort but isn't entirely impossible.

This build isn't going to happen overnight so I figured I'd make a thread to chronicle my progress. There is a lot that needs to get done so this project is going to be built over the course of the next couple years. Boosting it will be one of the very last stages. Also, when I say "budget" don't assume that I'm going to be skimping on vital parts, think of it more as me being a very good deal finder. Some parts will be purchased new and others that are less vital (or extremely expensive) will be acquired through classifieds. Let it be known that prefer quality used items over cheap parts that are prone to breaking.

Here's the gist of it:

ENGINE
4-bolt splayed conversion utilizing Howard's 10* billet main caps and ARP hardware, clearanced for stroker
- Scat 4340 crank
- Eagle 5.7" 4340 H-beam rods w/ARP 2000 bolts
- Mahle SBC425030I16 piston kit (4032 forged, -16cc dish, 1.425" CH)
AFR 210 Eliminators
LE billet cam (226/239 .565/.587 114)
- Single plane conversion w/World Motown EFI (heads drilled/tapped on inner 4, rest done with angle washers)
Cheapo FMIC
Used D1SC or T-trim @ 10ish psi without meth, more with injection-- may have to settle for S/Si-Trim or P1SC due to price
9.4:1 CR on 93 pump gas
24x swap for more tuning capability

TRANS
SFI bellhousing
DIY T56 Viper mainshaft conversion courtesy of a thread on LS1tech
Might be unnecessary but I think it's good assurance.

REAR
- Moser 9" with 35 spline axles and tapered axle bearing ends
- Yukon aluminum 9" thru-bolt center with 3.25" bearings
- Wavetrac
- 3.89 gears
I have the housing and axles already and you're probably wondering why I went with gigantic 35 spline axles. Truthfully speaking, this rear was a big compromise. I've read about people twisting 31 spline axles with the M6 and slicks so I wanted to upgrade to 33 spline. The issue is that there are no LSD carriers for 33 spline 9" rears other than the Eaton Truecrap so my only option was to upgrade to 35 and a Wavetrac. I don't want to run a spool, I like fast corners too.

OTHER
- PST driveshaft (chromoly or aluminum)
- Used UMI adjustable TA (chromoly)
- Used UMI adjustable panhard (chromoly)
Dual 255s
80# injectors
- Spec Stage 3+ disc
NHRA requirements (cage, SFI stuff)
Dyno tune
Other odds and ends (plugs, wires, pullies, etc.)

And there ya have it. A [somewhat] budget minded LT1 that can be safely boosted and driven on the street.

Edit 1/24/14: Changed the gear ratio. I've decided on running a M&H 27x9 drag slick and the 3.89 gear will put me where I need to be in the 1/4.
The single plane is probably out of the question. I'll only give it a shot if I have distribution problems.
Clutch was probably too extreme so I'm gonna dial back.

Edit 4/15/14: Rear is almost in. I picked up a set of C5 DD wheels and am using the Toyo Proxes TQ radial for the street. It's 315/35r18.

Edit 11/8/14: Forged GM 350 crank ditched for a used 4340 Lunati 383 crank. 24x swap also in progress. Single plane tacked back on due to saving money on the 24x setup (vortec dizzy instead of EFI cmp). Single plane will be a tweaked Motown EFI with custom rails.

Edit 12/4/14: Switching rod length from 5.85 to 5.7 so I can use the Mahle's with 383 crank. TFS heads ditched for AFR 210s.

Progress so far:
-Rear is in
-Clutch, bellhousing, driveshaft
-Panhard, TA installed
-Engine with Karl Ellwein

Edit 6/16/15: Picking ERE #60 from Karl

[dawdaw]

post some pics up of the car!!!

[musict]

With the HP your going to make, that stage 4 clutch is WAY overkill and you will not be happy with it on the street.... Ask me how I know :-)..... A Spec 3 or 3+ would be more than adequate for your build. The stage 4 is like a light switch and is very aggressive (grabby)

Good list of parts for your build, good luck!!

[Ugod02010]

Hopefully when I start building te new lt1 I'm picking up I can find parts on te cheap like that! Waiting for some pics man.

[Catmaigne]

Here's my bargain basement forged rotating assembly. I bought these parts early on because I came across some really good deals, but realistically the engine will be the last thing to get built. Right now I'm working on the 9", then my spare T56 will get torn down, and then the motor will be pieced together eventually.

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The crank is a little dusty. I stood the crank up because I remember hearing about cranks flexing from being stored on their side.

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5.850" with the ARP 2000 bolts. Thanks china!

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The Mahle has a .326" top land and a .197" crown under the dish with 4032 alloy. It was between this piston and a similarly priced Wiseco that I assumed was 2618 because it was "nitrous ready." I emailed Wiseco's tech looking for specs thinking that it was 2618 and would have a thicker crown than the Mahle, but I was wrong. It was 4032 and thin, really bad for a nitrous piston. The Mahles came with decent rings and I'm glad I went with them in the end. A builder on LS1tech is using the same style Mahle Power Pak with the same crown thickness and pushed his LQ motor up to 17-18psi on meth. His name is 427 if you want to look it up. That motor lasted him over 100k before an LS7 lifter broke apart.

[Catmaigne]

My 10 bolt has had it from the beating it endured on STREET TIRES.

Right now top priority is to get the 9" in the car for OCMD 2014 along with some QTPs. The Yukon center, pinion support, and bearing kit are all on their way and should be here in the coming week. Then all I need is the Wavetrac, gears, and rear disc brakes from a V6 98-02 car (which happen to be idential to "LS1" rears) from my local yard. I'm about to pick up a used PST driveshaft as well because I know the 1LE that's in there now is gonna twist easily.

Here's just the housing and axles when they showed up. I'll put up more detailed pics when the other goodies get here.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/moser_zps0d9e935b.jpg

Whole car is getting built back to front, I'm done breaking shit.

[Catmaigne]

@musict (http://ltxtech.com/forums/member.php?u=6791) Good point about the clutch, 3+ it is.

Quick question, do you have any pictures of the pressure plate that came with the Spec kit? I'm wondering if it's the "C70043" china part or a real Valeo. I found this pic on LS1tech of a 3+ and now I'm confused. It has the same casting # from the eBay clutch kit I put in my car a few years ago. I guess I could reuse it with a new disc if it's straight.

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My friend's 95Z has a Spec stage 1 but I don't think it had my cheapo casting # in it. I probably would have remembered that.

I remember reading that the china PP has a higher clamping force than the Valeo but you know how everyone gets when comparing OEM to china parts... But if it works, it works.

EDIT: I was mistaken, his stage 1 has it too! C70043

[Catmaigne]

The GOODS have arrived.

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Yukon aluminum through bolt case, 3.25" bearing
Yukon Daytona pinion support, billet aluminum
Billet steel yoke
Timken rebuild kit

Now all I need is the Wavetrac, ring and pinion (probably Motive or Yukon), a coat of paint, and "LS1" brakes from the local u-pull-it.

[Catmaigne]

I found out from SPEC that OEM, stages 1, 2, and 4 are all the same thickness but the stage 3 and 3+ are thicker. I would need to have .040 milled off of my pressure plate to use the 3+.

[Ugod02010]

That rear looks beast! Shouldn't have any more 10bolt problems with that!

[Fastbird]

I love the title "LOLT1." Looking forward to seeing this one come together.

[Catmaigne]

The Wavetrac and gears showed up yesterday. Hopefully, I'll have the 3rd member assembled by the end of the weekend.

I haven't had much luck finding cheap drag wheels so I'm just gonna put some Hoosier 315s on wide ZR1 rears and call it a day for now. Maybe I'll be able to hook in 1st and 2nd gears for once.

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[Catmaigne]

RIP 10 BOLT. You won't be missed.

Car is parked until the 9" goes in. I had to drive home at 30mph because it was making some really nasty noises with vibrations I could feel right through my shifter. I was beating on it pretty hard and expected it to break.

[Fastbird]

Haha, whoops. Take it apart, let's see what broke!

[Tyler Wheat]

Haha, whoops. Take it apart, let's see what broke!

X2

[Catmaigne]

I'll be ripping the rear out and selling it to a friend who wants the posi and brakes as soon as the 9" is ready. I'm curious to see what went wrong with the 10-bolt myself. Progress on the 9" has been slow but all of the bearings except the pinion pilot have been pressed on so the only thing left to do is set the preload and adjust the pattern. It should be going in within the next few weeks or sooner.

The new rear really should have been in already but I've been so distracted by other things. I picked up a junkyard LT1 today from a Roadmaster for the block along with these beauties...

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A set of lightly used Trick Flow 195s for $650. The kid I bought them from said some of the valves might be bent but I've yet to find a valve that wouldn't seal or seemed damaged. I'm gonna take a closer look at them and probably end up sending them out to Lloyd Elliot.

[Catmaigne]

2 of the exhaust valves weren't sealing properly so I ordered new ones. Everything else should check out hopefully and then they'll be off to Lloyd.

Work on the rear has been slow even though that's probably what I should be focusing on right now. I've been so tied up with other things and favors that I haven't had time to get anything done. There's one more bearing that needs to be pressed on (the pinion pilot) and then all I have to do is set the preload and run some patterns. Not hard, just time consuming.

[Catmaigne]

All of the bearings are pressed in and I think I have the proper preload with the test bearing. I just need to pick up another outer pinion bearing and torque it down and it will be time for contact patterns.

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[Catmaigne]

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The rear is 90% there. I'm still waiting on brakes, should be taking a trip to the junkyard this thursday to pick some LS1 style discs hopefully. Once I get those I can press the axle bearings on and get this thing under my car.

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I'm replacing my ZR1s with these. 17x9.5 front and 18.10.5 rear w/ 315 Toyo Proxes TQ radials. Those should be in on Wednesday hopefully.

I've also been working on my tune and managed to make something pretty useful out of the old one Solomon sent me. What sucks is that the ALDL cable I was using quit halfway through the 2nd program of the day and bricked my spare PCM. Was gonna try to make it to the dyno day next Saturday if the tune was on point but it looks like that's not happening anymore.

Everything right now is really just prep for OCMD 2014. I have a little more than a month to get everything in order.

[Fastbird]

You'll be happy having LE do those TFS 195's. He did mine way back in like 2006 and after it was running, it was worth every penny. Just and FYI but measure the valve guides. TFS say's they're .500. Mine most certainly are NOT. I'm using a .484 solid body valve seal on mine now (well, ordering today at least).

[Mystery Bird]

:popcorn: Keep up the good work. Been thinking about sending my TFS heads to Lloyd.

[Catmaigne]

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New wheels and tires are in. Took some serious pounding with the BFH mod to get them to fit but it was well worth it. :D

Went to the junkyard today in search of brakes for my 9" and some spare PCMs. I found one PCM but no brakes so I have to take another trip elsewhere sometime next week, probably Thursday. Those LS1 brakes are the only things stopping me from throwing this rear under my car.

[popo8]

looks fantastic man... I run the same wheels. Guess it goes to show even the same car... can be different. Mine did not take 2 much... but then again i run .50 spacers with longer wheel studs.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/11/vuhu9y7a.jpg

LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[Sahara54]

Amazing...You guys are making me want another Camaro.

[Catmaigne]

Thanks guys!

I probably had to do a little more pounding than most people because I went with a pretty thick tire on the back. Most people will run a 295 or 305 width with 30 sidewall to keep the diameter close to stock. I went with a Toyo Proxes TQ 315/35r18 drag radial that's about an inch taller (almost 27") and it looks mean! It's got some bulge to it but not too much.

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[Mystery Bird]

Those wheels look great on your car.

[Catmaigne]

Guess what I picked up!

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I found a guy up by Allentown with the brakes I needed for a decent price. I could have gotten them cheaper at a u-pull-it yard but the price of gas completely negates any money saved typically. Picked them up on Friday, definitely worth it. Time is money and I'm lacking both with OCMD coming up. I also ordered my PST driveshaft from Brute Speed. Should be coming in very soon so this rear can be in. These are the final steps of the 9" install. I already pressed the axle bearing onto one axle but the other was too long to work in my press. I'll have to get a shop to do it for me.

The trans in my friend's Roadmaster took a dump on him when going to pick the brakes up. The ultimate goal was a T56 swap but I guess that will be happening sooner than later. Good thing I have a spare. Stay tuned.

[popo8]

Thanks guys!

I probably had to do a little more pounding than most people because I went with a pretty thick tire on the back. Most people will run a 295 or 305 width with 30 sidewall to keep the diameter close to stock. I went with a Toyo Proxes TQ 315/35r18 drag radial that's about an inch taller (almost 27") and it looks mean! It's got some bulge to it but not too much.

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Im runnin 315-30-18s... ur 5% taller.

Great deal on the find.

Hope to see u in OCMD... Remember we will be trying to have an LTXtech Gtg...

LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[Fastbird]

God.....I think I'm going to get a set of the C5 DD wheels later this year. I can't help it. Everyone is getting them but they look SOOOOO good.....especially in black and machine finish.

[Catmaigne]

Today was supposed to be assembly day but I ran into a few snags. The rain never let up and my packages still aren't here. Rock Auto was supposed to ship my e-brake cables last friday via Priority mail but they've been slacking. They left the warehouse via Fedex ground last night and I'm pissed. My PST aluminum driveshaft is still MIA. Haven't received a tracking number yet despite ordering it about a week ago... I gave Bob a call but still don't have any info on that one. The wait continues.

It's not all bad news. My friend offered to buy me some needed parts for my build in exchange for one of my T56s and my current OEM style clutch setup. We both knew his A4 was on the way out and I told him not to break it before OCMD... He didn't listen and now I have to cobble his car together in addition to mine. I'm getting some cash for labor, a Mcleod SFI bellhousing, Spec billet flywheel, and a Spec Stage 3+ out of it. I figured when the rear comes out I'll pull the trans too. I didn't plan on doing any of this stuff for a while but it all just fell in my lap not that long ago. Getting built faster than I expected :)

He really did screw me in one way. I have a 6-speed as a core for a build up w/viper mainshaft in addition to the one that's already in my car. The plan was to build the extra trans and swap it in when the time comes for as little downtime as possible. Unless I find another trans there's no way that can happen now.

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It's almost all here.

Drive
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Coast
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Here's the pattern I settled on. I think it looks pretty good and centered root to top. Couldn't get it any better than this even with fine tuning about 1-1.5 thousandth at a time.

[Catmaigne]

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/newwheels_zps58292a1a.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/picc2_zpsb0387657.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/pic2_zps29acab22.jpg

[JCzNova]

Damn those are some good pics. POTM for next month!

[popo8]

They def are geeat pics

LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[yellowlt1ta]

I made a low buck lt1 turbo. Using all stock parts except for je pistons and ARP studs on everything and ran 15-16psi. It lasted a long time with a lot of beatings. Ended up bending a pm rod but only because I ran it with no water in the intercooler.

[Catmaigne]

Longevity has always been my main concern with this build. I can't afford for my motor to go out with a bang, that's why the whole thing is being built pretty stout. However, I'll be beating the piss out of it and I plan on using most of that power potential.

SO...
I have pretty much have all of the shortblock parts minus the oil pump, oil pump drive, drive saver, cam, hub, balancer, and the block itself. I sold the other LT1 block because I didn't like the nasty rust/rot near the skirt. I'm sure it would have been fine and the mileage was relatively low, but I wasn't going to chance it. Everything has to be picture perfect. There's another one I need to go pick up soon.

What I have so far:
GM forged 3.48 crank
Mahle dished pistons
Eagle H-beams
Clevite 77 bearings
Cloyes double roller timing set
Spec billet flywheel
ARP main studs
ARP head studs
Howards 4 bolt caps

[Fastbird]

Those caps are splayed I presume? List looks good so far IMO, though I'm partial to Diamond pistons.

Posted from my LG G2

[shownomercy]

Yea, partial to JE, have not heard of many LT1 guys running mahles with boosted motors. But, I don't get out much.

[Catmaigne]

Yep, they're billet caps that are splayed 10*.

I came to a fork in the road with my build a while back because of piston material. On one hand I could throw a 2618 set in there and boost the motor to hell and back. It wouldn't be nearly as street friendly because of increased PTW and slap, plus the pistons would deform with many miles and cause a loss of compression over time. Definitely a race car piston alloy. The other option was to dial back some boost with 4032 and put more money into a kick ass top end to make up the difference. I wouldn't have to deal with that kind of nasty slap on the street (something that would drive me up a wall) and it would last much longer. 4032 is what's used in all boosted OEM applications (the ZR1 uses dished mahles). My main concern with the motor is that it has to be street friendly because that's where most of its time will be spent. Going to the track is really a special occasion for me, there isn't much nearby.

I think all of the JE pistons are 2618 alloy and most of the dished Diamonds are the same way. Both were kind of expensive and not exactly what I was looking for. I found a bitchin deal on a set of Mahles w/rings that seemed pretty thick from the specs I got from one of their techs.

I also did a little bit of research and found a guy running a very similar piston setup. Only difference is that he was using the Mahle powerpaks in a turbo LQ4. I got to ask him a few questions about the pistons and it turns out that the specs between his pistons and mine are very similar in terms of crown and top land thickness. Same alloy too.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1317176-107-000-boosted-miles-comes-end.html

[GuillaumeC]

More important than material IMO is top/ringland thickness.

FWIW, I only hear my 2618 pistons slap on cold sarts. Can't hear them after they warm up a little.
They might make a little noise even after the engine is up to temp but between the sound of the exhaust and roller rockers I can't hear them. :)

[Catmaigne]

Top land is .326" and the dish is only -16cc so it shouldn't get too close to the back of the ring groove. The valve reliefs don't look super deep or wide either. They seem like well designed pistons compared to the "nitrous ready" Wisecos I was looking at for more money.

[GuillaumeC]

Top land is .326"

That's very good. :)

[Ryan Stout]

I run a 2618 and don't even notice it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Catmaigne]

The techs I asked about piston specs told me that 2618 will start to deform around 30-50k mainly where the ring grooves are (the side clearance increases). Hearing that really scared me away from the softer alloy because I didn't want to feel guilty about joyriding in my car. What 427 did was pretty amazing and if my motor can last over 100k boosted miles I'll be a very happy man.

[shownomercy]

The techs I asked about piston specs told me that 2618 will start to deform around 30-50k mainly where the ring grooves are (the side clearance increases). Hearing that really scared me away from the softer alloy because I didn't want to feel guilty about joyriding in my car. What 427 did was pretty amazing and if my motor can last over 100k boosted miles I'll be a very happy man.

If my car lasts another 30k with the current combo being untouched by my ADHD self, it would be a miracle :lol:

[Fastbird]

I only paid ~$600 for my custom Diamonds......those Mahles can't be that much cheaper. No slap here.

I will say this. Don't go into a high hp boost build expecting stock like longevity. You will be disappointed.

Posted from my LG G2

[Catmaigne]

I don't expect it to go forever, it's not a Camry. But I do know that with the right parts, proper setup, and a little bit of dialing back it could definitely last a long time... assuming I don't blow it up one way or another. I didn't want a softer piston to take that possibility away because I sure as hell don't want to rebuild it every 5+ years with the amount of mileage I put on. Plus, if I went with that alloy I'd be more inclined to run the thing on the ragged edge til it pops.

The Mahles were $563.69 shipped to my door. Pistons, rings, pins, etc. Diamond didn't really have anything on the shelf that I could use at the time and I usually equate custom with "expensive." Were they really $600? Sounds like a great deal but what I have will definitely get the job done.

[GuillaumeC]

The Mahles were $563.69 shipped to my door. Pistons, rings, pins, etc. Diamond didn't really have anything on the shelf that I could use at the time and I usually equate custom with "expensive." Were they really $600? Sounds like a great deal but what I have will definitely get the job done.

My Diamonds were about 600$ and they usually don't charge more money to build the pistons, it just takes an extra week or two.

Depending on your power goals, I'm sure you'll be just fine with those pistons if the tune is done right. :)

[Catmaigne]

I don't think any forced induction motor will survive if the tune isn't on point, seems like there's a lot at risk no matter what. My power goal isn't out of this world and I'll be getting there with the help of a kickass top end and more efficient blower. Rather than just cranking up the boost, I figured that the best option for a street car where longevity is the biggest concern would be to help the motor breathe before force feeding it. I'm not too keen on pushing my bargain basement rotating assembly that hard... maybe it's a little irrational, but my biggest fear is something stupid like shearing the crank snout off with a centri blower. High boost with one of those combined with a tight belt to prevent slip causing it to give out, that would be game over for me.

A bit of an update: I pulled the rear and trans out last night. Everything is finally here and it's time to assemble (after I get the new flywheel balance matched so it can live on my current motor temporarily). It started raining before I had a chance to do anything so hopefully I'll have a chance later this week.

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It just occurred to me that my rear and clutch setup are worth almost as much as what I paid for my car. But if I bought another car similar to mine instead of all this then I'd have two slow headaches instead of one lol.

[Catmaigne]

I gave the flywheel to a friend so he could get it balance matched to the original for me. Should be back tomorrow afternoon.

I ultimately went with the Spec kit because the cost of a new LT4 PP + required milling + new TOB + new pilot bushing + Spec disc was pretty much the same. I got a pretty good deal on a clutch kit and billet flywheel combo that I couldn't resist.

For reference, here's a picture of the old vs new PP. Left is the eBay OEM LT4 style PP and right is the new Spec 3+. Both have the same casting number... C70043.

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Same amount of straps/spring pieces. Spec claims they change the fulcrums but the two plates look identical. The only difference I can see is in the pin that goes through the contact surface on the left side of the strap. It looks a little bit thicker up top but it's hard to say if that means anything because my OEM style PP is from 3 years ago. Also, the Spec 3+ has .040 milled off of the contact surface which is probably why that pin sticks out further a bit on the bottom. Otherwise, they look identical except for blue powder coating. I wouldn't be afraid of using the cheaper Chinese plates if Spec is using them obviously.

[Catmaigne]

It rained most of the day so I didn't get much done. Sucks working outdoors.

So the rear is pretty much in... The Moser tolerances for the LCAs were pretty sloppy and loose so I made little spacers to tighten things up. The PHB mount on the rear is a little too tight so I'm going to have to grind some off the rod end so it will fit.

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I fought with the pilot bushing all day. Couldn't find a decent puller that would actually fit and pull the damn thing out. I tried the HFT blind hole puller first because I remember having good luck with it last time. No dice. Then I went to HFT again and grabbed the pilot bearing puller... and it didn't even fit. I went to Pep Boys to see if they had any loaner tools that would work and their slide hammer attachment was too large. I ended up at Autozone and found something that might work. Haven't given it a shot yet, the rain was pooling under my car and seeped into my clothing early on. By the time I got back from Autozone it was dark outside and I had enough. Hopefully the weather will hold on my next day off.

[94Blackbird]

On thing a couple of guys I know have done is use grease to push the old pilot bearing out. I don't remember exactly how they did it, but I believe it ran something along the lines of pushing grease back behind the bushing and filling the bearing itself most of the way, then use something that fits really snug in the bushing and apply the appropriate pressure. Another way to consider, which I did when I put the last clutch in my car, and the pullers wouldn't work, I used a chisel the break it up(on the advice from a couple of old timers.) I was careful and it worked eventually.

[Fastbird]

On thing a couple of guys I know have done is use grease to push the old pilot bearing out. I don't remember exactly how they did it, but I believe it ran something along the lines of pushing grease back behind the bushing and filling the bearing itself most of the way, then use something that fits really snug in the bushing and apply the appropriate pressure.

This. Nothing to worry with on the SBC or LT1 by going thus route. Appropriate pressure is a hammer firmly on the end of the dowel rod.

Posted from my LG G2

[Catmaigne]

I tried something similar the first time I did my clutch involving wet toilet paper, didn't have much luck and made a big mess. If this slide hammer doesn't work (even though it does look promising compared to the others), I'll give the grease method a try.

It might be dremel time after that. Bushing is only brass, should be easy.

[Fastbird]

The grease trick works, a bit messy, but clean up is easy. I've used it several times. Just don't try it on an LS motor.

Posted from my LG G2

[Catmaigne]

Wailed on it with the Autozone slide hammer for a while and nothing happened. I was frustrated and a little too careless after going at it for a while and ended up pinching a piece of my hand off... Oops. After that I had the grand idea to VERY CAREFULLY cut a small valley in the pilot bushing going from front to back with a dremel. I'd drill a little bit out and then whack at it again with the slide hammer. Took a few rounds of drilling but it eventually came out without any issues and the crank was unscathed.

It rained on and off today so I didn't get a whole lot done. The clutch kit is in and the bellhousing is almost bolted on. I had to grind out a segment of the motor plate so the stock starter would fit. I didn't find that out until I torqued everything the first time which was a colossal waste of time/effort. It's good that I checked before putting the trans on, I would have gone postal. It really seems like nothing ever really "bolts on" with all of this hardcore aftermarket stuff. Such is life.

[Catmaigne]

The Mcleod bellhousing looks like it was built to survive World War 3. I dig it.

[Catmaigne]

28572

Nothing has been a direct bolt in so far. I had to grind the bellhousing, panhard bar, e-brake brackets, and fab up some spacers for the LCAs. Now the torque arm has to be modified to fit despite the fact that it's adjustable. I should probably invest in something bigger than a dremel.

Some observations: The sway bar comes in contact with the housing (torque arm adapter mount). I'm running out of time so I'll have to live with no rear sway for now. My driveshaft loop also won't clear the giant UMI torque arm. Shimming it won't help because then it would touch the driveshaft. That's another project I don't have time for ATM.

It's getting there. Got some small stuff to do but it should be on the road later tonight hopefully.

[dawdaw]

Got any pics of where it's touching? What you running for a rear sway bar

[Catmaigne]

The problem is that the torque arm bracket or the mounting posts that are welded to the housing are slightly crooked towards the passenger side. The torque arm would go too far inward and the bushing end would point right at the trans mount. I couldn't get it to move any father towards the driver side to slip into the clamshell and when lifted up the TA would come in contact the with driveshaft. I thought maybe it was something in my suspension that was causing a problem so I disconnected everything but the TA and LCAs and put a jack under the rear. I also made sure the TA wasn't coming in contact with the tunnel (it was clear) but still no luck.

This was all with my UMI adjustable torque arm. I tried installing the stock stamped steel TA and had the same problems.

I went to the hardware store and bought four 3/4" hardened washers just to play around with. I put 2 washers between the TA mount and the housing to angle it towards the driver side and I was finally able to put the damn thing on. It's probably not a permanent fix (doesn't fit flush) but it will do for now. I'm kind of disappointed with the tolerances of the Moser housing. I would have expect more out of something I paid so much money for. I went with Moser over the QP housing mainly because I expected the fit to be improved, guess I was wrong.

I've been addressing each issue one at a time.
LCA brackets were loose so I made shims out of stainless washers
Panhard didn't fit so I filed down one of the rod ends
E-brake cable mounts didn't fit so I cut off the wrap around portion
Sway bar touches the housing (the lowest tube welded in for the TA mount)
TA is loose on the mount so I'll be making a shim (it's clunking)
TA is too far forward so I cut a sliver off of the front and cut the bushing a tiny bit so it could slide up further (otherwise there would be tension on the tailshaft housing)

[Catmaigne]

I tried a stock sway bar, a 21mm ST sway, and a 22mm sway from a third gen I had lying around. None really fit without touching.

The rear also raised the back of the car considerably. I knew the Moser 9" spring perches were higher up and I was told about a half inch increase... definitely not the case.

My previous suspension setup has been BMR springs up front with the hose modded stock springs out back. Seemed pretty settled, maybe a slight rake but not much. I bought some BMR rear springs to compensate the "half inch" so my car would be just as settled as it was (see pg. 4). NOPE. Check out that wheel gap! The BMRs with isolators should be about .5 lower than the hose mod springs meaning the car should sit exactly where it was... It honestly looks like it's gone up a half inch instead. I'm going to hose mod the BMRs and hopefully it will settle down.

28611

Yeah, my car is dirty and I'm missing a lug nut lol. But check out my vette center caps.

[Catmaigne]

And I'm gonna pull the center out tomorrow afternoon. I changed my pinion depth at the last second so the picture I posted a few pages back isn't what I'm running. I really should have left it alone because I moved the pinion in deeper thinking the pattern would be more ovate and diffused. Definitely too deep because she's LOUD. I'm going to pull it back out to what it was + another thou or two. I also want to decrease the pinion bearing preload because it whirrs like a straight cut gear. Rear only has about 30 miles (2 heat cycles) on it so I don't think I would have severely damaged anything. Gotta do it now.

[Catmaigne]

28648

Hose mod did the trick. Sits even now, I'm happy.

A lot of the rear noise is gone but it still clunks. I made a shim for between the TA and mount but that didn't help. Definitely not my backlash or suspension. I think it might be loose axle splines in my wavetrac. I'll have to do some testing.

[Catmaigne]

Rear/clutch are about half broken in. I'll be breaking it in some more tomorrow night if the weather holds... rain has been on/off. No majors problems from what I can tell, just small stuff. I have to get my trim painted and put back on, grind the bump stops a little, and play with my tune before Thursday morning. The drive to OCMD should be smooth.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/nu1_zps1f92476c.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/nu2_zpsb519c75b.jpg

[Catmaigne]

I still have to detail the crap out of it too. Could really use a good wash/wax.

Was also thinking about throwing a cheapo pass through muffler on the car just for cruise week. My magnaflow keeps falling off while driving because of the dinky band clamps included and I've never been truly satisfied with how it fits. It flew off on 309 while breaking in the rear and scared the piss out of me (I thought my diff exploded lol), luckily no one was around.

[popo8]

....Thursday morning. The drive to OCMD should be smooth.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/nu1_zps1f92476c.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/nu2_zpsb519c75b.jpg

Dont forget to keep in touch for ocmd gtg.

LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[Catmaigne]

Will do. I've been having trouble finding the event page on Facebook.

[popo8]

https://www.facebook.com/events/1425111597731318/?ref_dashboard_filter=upcoming


THAT^^^^ is the link to the FACEBOOK EVENT page for our LTXtech gtg. Im still trying to work out the when and where, although Im pretty sure the when on the event page will remain the same...


(FRIDAY (16th)


LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[Catmaigne]

Still can't see it, I just get redirected to a different page.

[Catmaigne]

1425111597731318 is the event number but nothing pops up.

[popo8]

Idk what to tell u boss. Thats the link.. I CLICK ON IT AND....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/11/4eperehy.jpg

LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[Flyinz]

Weld that muffler on and get rid of those pissy clamps. Sharp car btw.

[Catmaigne]

Dunno what's up with that. Maybe it's set to private? Doesn't really matter. I can check the OCMD thread on here for details when they're up. I'll definitely be around.

I shoulda welded that magnaflow on a long time ago but it's coming off eventually. My build kept evolving and now it's getting ditched for a 4" OTA system I'm gonna fab up, Mufflex style. Thanks for the compliment.

[Flyinz]

My last setup was the 3.5" Mufflex w/Magnaflow muffler and it sounded badass. It also ran VERY close over the axle. But, I've heard that running a 4" over the axle, there is a chance of rattle and clearance issues. But every car is different.

[Catmaigne]

If it doesn't then I can make it work. I own a few big hammers.

[popo8]

Dunno what's up with that. Maybe it's set to private? Doesn't really matter. I can check the OCMD thread on here for details when they're up. I'll definitely be around.

I shoulda welded that magnaflow on a long time ago but it's coming off eventually. My build kept evolving and now it's getting ditched for a 4" OTA system I'm gonna fab up, Mufflex style. Thanks for the compliment.

Its public.. very weird.

Anyways, I have been having people text me or PM me their phone number, and I created a GROUP text for the gtg... so I can keep everyone updated. If you are interested, TEXT ME @ 484-824-3343, add your screen name and real name, and I will add you to the group.

I dont wanna butcher this thread for you with off topic stuff... but we are aiming for the BLUE OX on Friday at around Noonish (we will be there at 12). Its at 127th street.

Tell your friends as well...its the LTX gtg, but its not limited to just LTXers....

[Catmaigne]

I stumbled upon a link to the gtg on LS1tech and now it's working and I'm in. Post #2.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/eastern-members/1725319-oc-cruisin-meets.html

I'll text ya tomorrow.

Will be there with a 95Z. My other friend's LT1 Roadmaster won't be making it, the manual swap wasn't going smooth so it's on hold until after OCMD. Prepping my car is more important (especially because my fenders are chewing on my 315s).

[Catmaigne]

Kick ass, the meet is only a few blocks from where I'm staying.

[popo8]

Good deal man...waitin for ur text then.

LTXtech.com is my DRUG!

[Catmaigne]

I'm back with pics.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/OCMD%20May%202014/20140517_160711_zps70105783.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/OCMD%20May%202014/20140517_161759_zpsf03834c1.jpg

There's a never ending list of things to do. Rear is coming out again for inspection (search for clunk) and then I'm gonna continue prepping my harwood hood. Now that cruise week is over I'll actually have some free time.

[Catmaigne]

28917

Weather has been questionable so I haven't pulled the rear yet. Had a spare berger panel laying around so I shaved it in the meantime. Turned out pretty well. I think I'm gonna black out the red and gloss it to match the sail panel. Also on the hunt for an LT1 SS spoiler.

[Catmaigne]

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/test2_zps6ad7e05a.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/ass4_zps6fcec8e4.jpg

Gonna respray the berger in satin to give it more pop. But I really dig the shaved look. I'm tempted to put #lolt1 on it somewhere.

[Catmaigne]

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/spoiler_zpse987ff79.jpg

New spoiler.

[Catmaigne]

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/22_zps5f33d6dc.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/11_zpsdc977f66.jpg

Been playing with the exterior a lot recently. I'm getting closer.

My motor build will start back up once I find a decent core... Not having much luck. The other junker I was gonna grab got snatched up. I'll keep my eyes peeled. Not like there's any shortage of work to do elsewhere. I'll get to it eventually.

[popo8]

Car looks amazing. Love the filled berger

LTXtech.com is my Drug...

[LT slow]

Damn car is amazing!

[Catmaigne]

Thanks guys.

Still getting this thing ready. I'll probably end up getting a non ram-air harwood if this doesn't turn out well. That's the one I've always wanted but I got this hood for dirt cheap so it's getting thrown on for shits and giggles.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/harwood_zps273a47cf.jpg

[F.G.]

The car is looking great man. I'll definitely be following this build.

[Catmaigne]

First serious time at the track today with my car. Drove all the way out to Atco Raceway in NJ with my friend and his Roadmaster to run with other street cars. Working on that driver mod! I swapped the loud as god Thrush setup out for my old Magnaflow before leaving. Here are some pics:

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/20140729_174821_zps2b7a0ff8.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/20140729_193823_zps9589bdba.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/20140729_193941_zps69fd329f.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/20140729_193946_zps210bb582.jpg

Had problems shifting all night which I can attribute to my clutch hydraulics. I was too much of a lazy bum/cheapass to swap my old hydraulics out during the Spec install and I'm kicking myself for it now. The old master/slave was put in when I did my OEM style clutch @ 83k. Car has 97k on it now so the parts are fairly new but they're not playing nice with the new Spec PP, even after break in. I can tell it's dragging because it's reluctant to get into 1st immediately after pressing the clutch and it doesn't like high RPM shifts (won't let me in gear shifting 6000+). The only other thing that could explain what I'm experiencing is worn syncros but I doubt the trans Kyle sold me is beat and the shifting issue isn't limited to just 1 gear or syncro. I had trouble shifting in 3 of the 4 passes I made, different gear shifts each time. I let off after each missed shift and never really got a good ET. The best ET I could muster was 13.7 @ 92 because I couldn't get into 4th and coasted through the finish line (launch was bad t so I didn't bother).

The other issue was that it's nearly impossible for me to launch correctly with Atco's tree and no 2 step box. There's barely any time between the "staged light" (the 2nd one) and the countdown for me to get the RPMs where they need to be. The drag radials + M6 combo makes launching very difficult because a quick release of the clutch at anything but the perfect spot means I'm spinning or bogging (3600-3700 seems to do it for me on the street). I had the tires aired down to 20psi but I honestly don't know what I was launching at and 3 of the 4 passes had crap launches.

My solution to this was to get the RPMs in check before the 2nd staging light came on, then inch forward a tiny bit so I'm fully staged. Unfortunately, the car rolled forward farther than I realized (didn't have a 3rd foot to press the brake) and the countdown on the tree froze at the first yellow bulb. So I'm sitting at the starting line completely oblivious to the clock ticking while my friend in the Roadmaster rockets off. I didn't realize that the green light wasn't coming on until a few seconds later so my 60' came out at over 6 seconds, but my launch was 10x better than all the others I made. I also granny shifted the rest of the way down the track so I could get in gear and still managed to trap 106 mph. The ET was something ludicrous like 17.xxx.

Anyone have any tips on how to launch without a 2 step box? I was thinking about getting the revs in check during the 1st staging light, then clutching forward slightly, and ripping the ebrake as soon as the 2nd light comes on so I don't roll through the beam. That seems to be the only thing I can think of other than staging before the guy in the other lane and hopefully having enough time to set up (which rarely happens). I really should just buy a 2 step box but money is tight :(.

Never had problems launching on the street without a 2 step though. Those Toyos hook pretty damn well.

Probably gonna go up to Maple Grove on Friday to try to redeem myself. Trying to pick up a new master/slave tomorrow and throw it in. Despite all of the BS, I had a ton of fun tonight.

If anyone was wondering what the Roadmaster ran, the best was something like 15.01 @ 95mph with a 60' of a hair under 2.3 (on stock 29" street tires). He also told me he short shifted 1-2 at around 4500. There's definitely a ton left in that car, my friend has been driving stick for only a few weeks so I think he did good. He told me he was having trouble shifting 2-3 with the stock shifter (my biggest problem with it) so that's gotta be upgraded soon.

[blackbirdws6]

I feel your pain on launching an M6 with a good dose of power. What DRs are you running? What RPMs were you trying to launch at? There are a numbers of factors to get everything to play nice. I have all the parts but still working on getting it all setup properly.

A 2-step will help with consistency but the rest is still up to you. Bumping into the 2nd stage light with the clutch isn't the best idea. When you get a 2-step, you just roll in, depress clutch, throttle and on the last yellow, release the clutch and go.

[Catmaigne]

I'm running Toyo Proxes TQ drag radials in 315/35r18 @ 20 psi. The only decent launch I had was around 3700 RPM but I have no idea what my 60' was. There was a tiny bit of hop on that launch so I was thinking about taking my LCAs down 2 holes on the relocation brackets, maybe take the pressure down, and bump the RPM up a little. They seemed to hook great but I didn't really get a chance to dial anything in because the strip was pretty crowded with the other classes.

My issue is getting the RPMs where they need to be in the really brief period of time between the staging lights and the countdown (virtually no time). I've seen videos where drivers are given a little more time, maybe the tree at Atco is just really fast. I want to look down at my tach to get it right but I know I need to stay focused on the tree so my reaction time isn't crap. The best R/T I had all night was .29, better than the guy in the auto Challenger next to me. Now if I had a 2 step all I'd have to do is slam my foot down and stay focused on the clutch pedal.

[shownomercy]

Why do you care about RT?

Stage, let the tree do its thing and leave when you are good to go, AFAIK unless you are bracket racing the clock doesn't start till you leave the lights.

[Catmaigne]

That's what I thought but seemed like every stick car was leaving at the green from watching in the stands and I did the same. So maybe the few other stick drivers were superhuman and could slow down time? Or maybe they sucked just as much as me.

Probably going to go down to Atco again this Tuesday. My hydraulics should be here Saturday or Monday and hopefully I'll be able to swap them without pulling a header. Also gonna drop the LCAs down, pull out my A/C (dead weight), and get my datalogging rig up and running so I can know where I'm really shifting. I know the stock tach is crap. Car still doesn't have a rear sway bar because it was interfering with the Moser housing. I'll try to do some grinding and slap that on, it should help out. I also want to check out my valvetrain and redo the valves with a little less preload.

[myltwon]

That's what I thought but seemed like every stick car was leaving at the green from watching in the stands and I did the same. So maybe the few other stick drivers were superhuman and could slow down time? Or maybe they sucked just as much as me.

Probably going to go down to Atco again this Tuesday. My hydraulics should be here Saturday or Monday and hopefully I'll be able to swap them without pulling a header. Also gonna drop the LCAs down, pull out my A/C (dead weight), and get my datalogging rig up and running so I can know where I'm really shifting. I know the stock tach is crap. Car still doesn't have a rear sway bar because it was interfering with the Moser housing. I'll try to do some grinding and slap that on, it should help out. I also want to check out my valvetrain and redo the valves with a little less preload.

Had to do the same with my moser housing, bunch of grinding and it would finally clear with my BMR Anti-Roll bar.

[Catmaigne]

Bad news... I think I broke something at the track today. Not sure if it's a tick from the valvetrain or bottom end related, but the motor is definitely noisier and shutters pretty bad at low RPM. My oil pressure seems a bit lower than usual but it's hard to tell because those electronic senders are garbage. Gonna pull the valve covers tomorrow and check everything out. I hope the motor isn't toast but I can't say I didn't see this coming... motor is nearing 100k and has an interesting history. Pretty surprised it lasted this long.

Someone at the track told me I was blowing white smoke at the top of every gear. To me, white = coolant but I'm not loosing anything... Maybe it's oil getting sucked up by the PCV or leaky valve stem seals (changed with the cam 10k ago)? Whatever it is it's bad.

What really blows is that I didn't even get a good pass in. I swapped the clutch hydraulics this afternoon and headed out to Atco after buttoning the car back up. I figured that even if the hydraulics didn't fix my dragging/shifting issue I'd still enjoy watching the other cars... I just didn't expect my motor to take a shit on me. Luckily, I noticed something was wrong and bailed out before I could do any more damage. Car made it home without the help of a tow truck (thankfully).

Only made 3 passes before thing started acting up with the motor. Best pass was 13.78 @ 92 with a 60' of 2.05 (bleh). Bitch wouldn't go into 4th gear so I coasted through the finish (again). Felt like I was down on power (more so than usual) and I'm still having trouble shifting. Have no idea what it could be. Dragging input shaft on the pilot bushing? Problem with my clutch pedal that's preventing me from disengaging fully? Bearing drag on the input shaft/countershaft?? Running out of ideas but I highly doubt it's the trans.

So right now it looks like my build is about to take a massive detour. If I find out this motor is trashed I'm probably going to source a low mileage junker shortblock, get the Trickflows milled, do some mild DIY porting, and slap the whole thing together with a more wild cam for the time being. I'll be back in OCMD in 2 months which definitely isn't enough time to put together my forged 355. On top of that, I don't have the funds to make the real build happen right now so I'll have to make due. I'll call it LolT.5 or something.

Can't really say anything for sure until I dig into the motor tomorrow. We'll see.

[Catmaigne]

Now that the car is out of commission I have all the time in the world to find out what's up with the Wavetrac and Moser spline clunking.

That and finally put on my hood... unless someone wants to trade??? I'm tempted.

Might sell the Mahle's too because I could really use the cash. Finding out that I could get custom Diamonds for not that much more has been bugging me. I think I can justify custom pistons in the future.

[Catmaigne]

It's been raining on and off today but I pulled the valve covers when it let up. Everything seemed in check. I removed all of the pushrods, rockers, and lash caps and stuck them in a box to take a closer look on my workbench. All rocker studs/guideplates were tight on the heads and I didn't see any broken valve springs when I glanced over them. I put the valve covers back on to keep moisture out... thunderstorms are headed my way. I just checked out the parts I removed... pushrods are straight, rockers seem to be in good shape, and the lash caps aren't damaged.

Probably gonna double check my dual springs and if there's nothing wrong there I guess the intake is coming off when the forecast is good. I'm thinking collapsed lifter or something along those lines. Really hope it's not in the bottom end but I honestly don't have high hopes for the motor because of the oil pressure. It still has 10-15 psi @ hot idle on the shitty dash gauge but it used to be higher than that. Looks about 5-10 psi lower while cruising too but it's hard to say.

Not sure if the sound is a tap or something more serious. It's coming from the passenger side of the engine which makes me think lifter or wrist pin.

[Catmaigne]

Well, everything checks out up top. Springs and lifters look fine. So I guess I'm on the hunt for a low mileage shortblock. Not opposed to buying the whole motor depending on price. If anyone knows of one in the SE PA area shoot me a pm. Hopefully I can find something in time for OCMD in October.

Gonna hold off on building that 355 for the time being. Would need a loan to get it done and I don't think that's a wise decision for me right now. I also emailed Diamond with a few questions about custom pistons and pricing. If it's too much then I'm probably gonna hold onto my Mahles.

[Catmaigne]

It's been a while and diamond still hasn't gotten back to me. Can anyone with custom pistons comment how much they spent? Shipped to your door with pins and rings.

[GuillaumeC]

If my memory is correct it was around 700$.

EDIT: Found the invoice, I paid 620$ + 50$ shipping in November 2009...

Diamond part number 11425

[Catmaigne]

Are pins/rings/locks included in that? I already got the Mahles for around a hundred less and they came with everything. Still haven't heard back so I'm probably gonna make a call.

[GuillaumeC]

Pin and locks, no rings.

Those are their turbo/blower dished pistons in 2618 alloy.

[Catmaigne]

So... Haven't had much luck finding a reasonably priced junker shortblock I'd feel confident in running. I didn't want to sink too much money into a temporary setup because it would delay the real build too much. Unless one pops up for cheap, I'm probably going to continue with my forged 355 for now.

I think I'm gonna stick with my Mahle's. Pretty happy with the specs and I'm sure they'll stand up to what I'll be throwing at them.

I mic'd the crank yesterday. Some journals measured up great and others... not so much. Found certain spots with 3-4 ten thousandths taper and 4-5 ten thousandths out of round. Crank was already ground 20 on the mains and 10 on the rods so it looks like it needs to be ground/polished again.

Question: I understand that micropolishing is great for journal finish because it gets rid of tiny burrs but does it remove enough material to flatten out the taper/out of round I have? edit: talked to a machinist who thinks "no"

I'm ordering a set of tips for my mics so I can use them to measure bolt stretch. Then it'll be time to check my Eagle rods (I've heard china rods usually need to be resized out of the box... we'll see).

[KLaBZ28]

Awesome build man. I think I may go this "budget" centrifugal blown route with my car now that I've convinced myself not to sell it and buy an LS1 car /OR swap my car.. I've flip flopped many times too and decided its way cooler to be that different guy with the LT1.

I like the idea of using the ZZ4 crank. But I'm surprised you're not doing a 24x conversion with all of this. I know it wouldn't fit the budget goal but it seems like everyone boosting these cars runs the 24x. I've been looking into converting my car myself and tuning it with EFI Live instead of tunercats.

[Catmaigne]

:secret: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

29991

I ran into this PCM at a really cheap u-pull-it yard and it got me thinking... I was going to replace most of my ignition system with new parts during the 355 build because I don't trust what's on my stock motor now. My opti has mystery mileage (I think 50k?), the plug wires are a few years old (cheapo Jegs brand), the stock coil probably won't cut it with boost, etc. So after adding up all of the costs of those parts brand new (Delco opti, MSD wires, MSD coil, etc.) and factoring in the price of a dyno tune (I would probably have to pay Bryan Herter a good bit for him to travel across the state) I decided to ditch the opti and go for a bargain basement 24x swap.

I noticed a fella selling a pair of EFI connection's 693 truck coil brackets and MSD 8.5 wires for $80 shipped. Snatched all those up and ran back to the yard for the computer ($15). So now all I need are coils (not crazy expensive for new Delcos on ebay), cam/crank sensors, and the timing cover ($$$ b/c of my double roller). I'll be repining my own harness and will try to pick up some parts used (especially the billet timing cover). Probably going to cost around the same or less than keeping the opti, especially when you factor in tuning.

[firebird_1995]

I wonder how much additional room is needed to run the double roller vs the single. If it wouldn't take reforming the oil pan gasket area on the timing chain cover it would be easy to make a spacer for it.

[Fastbird]

I run a double roller under a stock 93-95 timing cover. Only takes a little clearance on the inside of the cover.

[Catmaigne]

Gonna need the 96-97 cover at least for the 24x swap. The issue with using a stock 96-97 timing cover with the double roller will be interference and placement of the crank sensor/reluctor with a wider crank sprocket and chain. There's a guy over on the LT1 section of LS1tech who used the stock cover and just doubled up on gaskets to move the sensor forward. That's sounds a little too ghetto for me so I'm on the hunt for a used EFI billet one.

Let me say that by far the BIGGEST reason I decided to go 24x is that I'll be able to reassign cylinders to different banks and use a different firing order. I had been toying with the idea of a 4/7 2/3 (gen 3+) or 4/7 order swap for a long time but couldn't find a way to make it viable and cheap with the opti. It's not something I'm doing for the "added power" advertising hype, I'm trying to take as much stress off of the crankshaft as possible by shifting the more stressed crank pins farther rearward. This means less crank deflection/torsion and should keep my mains happier. I already feel like I'm on the edge with a 1053 forged crank @ 6.5-7k, heavy rotating assy, a blower dragging on the crank snout, and a ton of cylinder pressure. Anything I can do cheaply to help my motor out is a good idea.

4/7 2/3 swap is ideal
4/7 is still pretty good compared to stock order

Still waiting on a response from LSM about the fancy billet core 4/7 2/3 cam but I'm guessing it's going to be $600~ which is too much for me. On the other hand, Erson can grind me a 4/7 swap cam for around $410 from a blank they have which isn't a whole lot more than a regular custom grind (Lloyd's are $300). Not bad for a custom stub nose HR cam as the $ quotes I got from Crane and Comp were laughable. The Comp 224/236 114 shelf cam I wanted initially is $270 and I wasn't having much luck finding a good used one or something similar.

I think it's safe to say that my build is about to get weird.

[Catmaigne]

The crank sprocket of my cloyes measured up at a hair over .545". Gonna get some different gauges and measure again. Maybe give EFI a call and see if I can squeeze it behind a 96-97 cover with a little bit of grinding but I doubt it. From their site:


The included timing cover has clearance for a double row timing set and the included 24x crank reluctor has clearance for a double row timing set. However, we STRONGLY recommend using EFI P/N 120-00090 if you must use a double row timing set. If you are determined to use your own double row timing set, the cam sprocket thickness must measure 0.230" and the crank sprocket thickness must measure no more than 0.545".

[firebird_1995]

Yea I should have worded that differently. I should have asked, I wonder what it would take to run a double roller WITH the 24x reluctor. I've never had to clearance a 95 timing chain cover for a double roller timing chain set. I have however, doubled up a gasket for a little extra insurance. It feels dirty at first. You find yourself there, rtv shellaced on both sides of 2 gaskets, your wife and kids are looking at you in disgust, and even the dog treats you like crap, looking you dead in the eyes as he empties his bladder all over the brand new Michelin tires you had to buy for your wife's minivan the week before. Then as you stare out over the garage and see all the wounded gazelles gathered together, limping and whimpering.... you just do it. You bolt it together and move on to the heads or intake. After a shower you'll forget all about it

[Catmaigne]

Hahaha that's exactly I feel about it. If I didn't have to worry about a crank sensor I'd have no qualms about doubling up... Not sure how far that will move the sensor outward (would need a compressed gasket to measure). All I know right now is that the stock LT1 sprocket is .526" (# courtesy of the web) and the Cloyes 3145 is a touch over .545" (from when I measured mine). If it's just a matter of grinding my stock timing cover then that's not a problem for me. I think the problem is fitting the reluctor behind the crank seal though... not sure how much room I have to play with.

[KLaBZ28]

That's pretty funny that right after I asked why no 24x you got one haha. Nice score.

[Catmaigne]

Yep. Haven't really been keeping my thread up to date because I've been wrenching on my beater a lot. I need 4wd this winter or I'm gonna die lol.

[KLaBZ28]

Yeah me too. I haven't been too into my Z lately because I'm looking for either an awd car or a 4x4 1500 silverado. I can't do another winter with my 180k saturn SL1, although the gas mileage is sweet. But I did just buy an electric cutout, a complete 02 ebony interior and next up is a 24x setup :)

I'll be following this..

[Catmaigne]

It's time for some block work!!! Anyone know of a top notch machine shop in my area? My local "speed shop" is run by a bunch of con artists and I'd rather not go to them again. I know of a place out in Phoenixville run by a friend of my friend's old boss. I think they're called Lucky's Race Cars but I've never used them so I'm a bit weary.

I've also been playing around with a few different online graphers to get piston position/velocity/acceleration for different strokes and rod lengths. I really want to make some sort of spreadsheet/graph that spits out forces for a given piston/pin/rod weight to give you a rough idea of how all of the variables relate. Excel seems too stupid to do any of that but I'm not done playing with it. Here's what I have so far by just playing around with desmos.com/calculator:

30068

Purple line is piston pin location relative to the crank axis
Orange line is piston velocity
Black line is piston acceleration
r=rod length
s=stroke

[KLaBZ28]

Hell yeah. Are you an engineer too or just a nerd?

[Catmaigne]

Hahahaha, a little bit of both. I'm actually going for a degree in mechanical engineering. Over-thinking things is my specialty and I thought this would be a cool thing to check out. Science, bitch!!!!!!!!!

[Catmaigne]

So, the more and more I look at this crank the less I like what I see. It doesn't mic up nicely compared to production spec, the radii aren't smooth, and the journals don't look polished. I haven't even put it in a block to check straightness... At minimum, this thing would need to be reground to 30 mains/20 rods and get sent out to be rehardened (I feel like a 1053 crank is going to be filled with cracks without it @ my goal). I'm sure it would stand up to a more mild build but whether or not it will survive in my motor is questionable and I can't say I want to find out. It's becoming a money pit and I could have something 4340 for around the same price.

I contacted the company that ground the thing... doubt they're going to get back to me. Even if they do and allow me to exchange it, I'm sure whatever crank they send will probably be the same. So unless I can find a steel 1 piece 3.48 GM crank that mics up nicely and is straight for a REASONABLE PRICE I'm SOL. Don't think that's gonna happen. Saw one on CL included in a rotating assembly for $500 but I don't think the guy wants to split it up. Even if he did, he would probably want $300+ for it which seems like a waste. I'd rather put that towards a new or used Compstar/Scat/Lunati etc. and at that point I'd want to stroke the damn thing.

So I'm at a crossroads. I think things are about to get expensive...

[Catmaigne]

Guys... I have a confession to make

30301
30302

This was too good of a deal to pass up. It's an old Lunati Racer series crank, p/n CJ117BN. Should be better than the Sledgehammer. 4340, non twist forging (pretty sure it's USA), gigantic .140" fillet radii, 3.75" stroke... Mic'd up a few journals and it's already looking a ton better than my reman GM crank. I still need to take it to the machine shop to check for straightness, mag, and polish. Hopefully it checks out.

Gonna need new pistons but I can't say I'm partial to the Mahles anyway. I'd rather keep the longer 5.85" rod than switch to 5.7" in a stroker app so my Eagles are definitely staying. Now I have an excuse to get custom Diamonds!

[blackbirdws6]

New crank looks good. Hopefully it checks out. I just pulled the trigger on a set of custom diamonds myself.

[Catmaigne]

Did some measuring. This is what I have so far for out of round. Things are looking good... my gamble might be paying off.

Mains
#1 .0003 max
#2 .0002
#3 .0001
#4 .0002
#5 .0001

Rods
#1 .0002
#2 <.0001
#3 .0001
#4 <.0001
#5 .0002
#6 <.0001
#7 .0002
#8 <.0002

[Catmaigne]

My taper measurements

Mains
#1 .0003 max
#2 .0001
#3 .0001
#4 .0002
#5 .0002

Rods
#1 .0001
#2 <.0002
#3 <.0002
#4 .0001
#5 <.0002
#6 .0000
#7 .0001
#8 .0001

A machinist will be double checking my measurements along with checking for straightness/mag. Hoping to drop this stuff off sometime next week. Now it's time to check out these Eagles and see how bad they are out of the box.

[shownomercy]

Did some measuring. This is what I have so far for out of round. Things are looking good... my gamble might be paying off.

Mains
#1 .0003 max
#2 .0002
#3 .0001
#4 .0002
#5 .0001

Rods
#1 .0002
#2 <.0001
#3 .0001
#4 <.0001
#5 .0002
#6 <.0001
#7 .0002
#8 <.0002

TIR? So .000015 on the main worst case? lulz thats good, prob better than what you are measuring with can accurately show.

What did you support the crank on?

[Catmaigne]

TIR? So .000015 on the main worst case? lulz thats good, prob better than what you are measuring with can accurately show.

What did you support the crank on?

Yeah, TIR. I don't have a donor block yet and mine is still in the car so all measurements were done with the crank standing straight up. It's definitely reading a ton better than the freshly ground 350 crank and the fillet radius is a work of art.

I pulled an Eagle rod out the packaging and it's already .0002 out of round on my bore gauge. Haven't even stretched the bolts yet and I doubt they do it at the chinese factory. This might not be worth my time lol.

[shownomercy]

How did you manage to measure it standing up? Curious on that one

[Catmaigne]

It was a bit of a balancing act with the mic resting on the area between my pointer finger/thumb and my elbow planted on the workbench or a box to keep things steady. I used my thumb and fingertips to keep the mic as horizontal as possible and do a very very small amount of adjusting while ratcheting the thimble to make sure it wasn't crooked. I was getting repeatable measurements each time and took a total of 6 readings (60* apart, 3 overlapping) each go round for both top and bottom of the journals. Definitely a pain in the ass but I didn't want to set the crank on its side because dual planes never look supported laying down. Couldn't find any real problem areas and worst was main #1 (although, still within spec) but I definitely want a good machinist to double check in a fixture or something.

Just wanted some preliminary readings before spending any $$$ on this thing. It's used so I had no idea what to expect when it showed up in a cardboard box. Definitely have a little more confidence in it now.

[shownomercy]

What, now you have me confused, you measured taper and runout with a mic..? Taper I can see being doable, but TIR needs a dial indicator no?

[Catmaigne]

I think I misunderstood. Not entirely sure how one would go about using a regular dial to measure anything other than total crankshaft runout or thrust. Maybe an expensive arnold gauge on a crank grinder but I can't imagine that being practical to use for simple measurements.

I thought it was common practice to use an outside mic with .0001" units to measure the journals. I mic'd it in several spots radially right in the center while making sure to avoid the oil holes. I got the out of round measurements by simple subtraction of the max-min which is what I thought you were referring to by asking TIR (d'oh). I later compared those measurements to the ones I obtained while looking for taper to make sure there weren't any low spots near the edges I could have missed (top and bottom of each journal) and everything was still within my initial roundness spec.

I'll be dropping this thing off tomorrow so I'll report back with what my machinist thinks. Biggest concern as of right now is straightness because I know the crank has been sitting in a box for a while. It was padded with styrofoam but I've always been told to hang cranks from the snout or stand them up on end regardless.

[shownomercy]

TIR/concentricity is the relation to axis(es) to each other, so while you may have perfectly round journals (which it sounds like you do) the relationship of say #1 to #3 could be off. Usually you stick the piece of some blocks and then zero a dial indicator on one journal. Then move indicator across marble to the next journal to compare axis of the two circles.

Fun stuff no? :lol: Way to much dimensioning at work lately.

[Catmaigne]

Sounds more like indexing and a lot of those measurements can vary with different v blocks and crank grinders that need calibration. I'll have to ask how much it would cost tomorrow. On the other hand, if it checks out to be straight and crack free I'll probably just get it polished and run the thing. I can tell Lunati's machine work was on the money being that it still mics up better than a lot of new cranks despite being used. I know these ran a pretty penny back in the day.

[Catmaigne]

Still waiting on the crank & rods... it's been a week since I dropped them off at the machine shop. Any day now...

Don't think I ever posted pictures of this stuff. It's been collecting dust.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/111_zps430ea9a4.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/222_zpsd7555119.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/333_zps7e6c8b6d.jpg

Probably going to have send the Cloyes back or just buy a shorter chain for it. Not sure how much the 4-bolt conversion will affect the crank position. I guess it depends on how good the machine work is but I definitely want as little slack as possible.

I got the caps for $180 without the Howards logo. Billet steel and 10* splayed. Definitely will take the abuse.

Those are ARP main studs (w/windage tray) and ARP head bolts. Being that this is a street car build, I decided against head studs because of sealing issues and easier head removal in the car.

I also have a Melling Select 10554 std vol/high pressure oil pump. This is the pump with the more robust casting, steel gears, and hardened drive shaft. Just need the pickup for that because I will be reusing the stock oil pan. Not sure if I want to modify it or not but I'll definitely be adding some bungs with a Vortech (the D1SC is self contained).

Clearances I'm shooting for.
.0021 on the rods
.0025 on the mains with the rear around .0029"
Car probably isn't going to see past 6500 RPM with the same cam in a 383. The order swap means less crank deflection so I'm probably fine without running the mains super loose. I wouldn't want that on a street car anyway that will be using 5W30 synthetic.

I'm tempted to run a small 1-qt accusump for priming at startup. I may also consider a small oil cooler depending on temps but I certainly don't want to overload my std volume oil pump and lose pressure (especially if it has to feed a blower too).

edit: still curious about what clearances to run... I'll ask around. Definitely don't want it too loose with a SV pump.

[Catmaigne]

Forgot to mention that I think the crank is cross-drilled. Don't know if it came from Lunati that way but it's the type of cross-drilling that still retains the usual "straight shot" rod journal oil feed but has an additional channel that runs along the main journal diameter. The advantages/disadvantages are hotly debated, but I'm not going to lose sleep over a motor that's only turning ~6.5k with plenty of oil pressure. My mains will be half grooved because anything more would be redundant and probably result in less oil pressure. Off the top of my head, I know the Nissan Skyline RB26DETT, 300ZX VG30DETT, Ford mod motors (like 4.6/5.4), Porsche 928 V8, Subaru WRX EJ2557, older Chevy BBs, Toyota 2ZZ, etc. motors come with cross-drilled oil passages in their cranks from the factory. I don't think it's a big deal in my case.

Another thing I've been contemplating is machining small pauter-style oiling grooves on the big ends of my Eagles if it can be done without compromising rod strength. Having more control over the direction of oil that gets flung out of the rod side clearance is a plus. I would want some sort of piston pin oiling/crown cooling spray directed up the rod beam and another groove at the bottom of the rod cap as a discharge in hopes to prevent windage. If I can get it done for free without creating any stress risers it would be worth it... I know the Eagles can handle much more than I'm throwing at them.

[Catmaigne]

Scored a set of Delco 693 truck coils with harnesses at the junkyard today for $33. I do plan on replacing them with a brand new set by the time the blower goes on (for peace of mind), but this is good enough to get me started. I just need a billet timing cover (to fit a double roller chain), 24x wheel/ckp, and some sort of cam position sensor. I was thinking about modifying a spare opti I have lying around to give me a 1x signal instead of using EFI's bolt in cmp which I'm not crazy about. The all-out option would be to run a vortec dizzy with a cheapo single plane (like the EFI Super Vics and Motowns that keep popping up on ebay for ~$180) because machining the LT1 intake requires $$$ and isn't worth it... However, adjusting it in the car would be a major PITA (although, still doable).

30563

Still haven't heard about my crank/rods. Haven't really had time to call either, gonna do it tomorrow. These dudes work really f'n slow.

If anyone is interested... I put together something on desmos that graphs piston position, piston velocity, piston acceleration, and rod angularity for different rod/stroke values.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/xxgdgxgmx9

The x-axis and rod angularity values are in radians so you'll have to convert those to degrees if they're confusing. This can be done by multiplying whatever value you're looking for by 57.3=360/(2*pi). Ex. pi*57.3=180 degrees.

I'm pretty sure my math is correct (but let me know otherwise).

[KLaBZ28]

Hahahaha, a little bit of both. I'm actually going for a degree in mechanical engineering. Over-thinking things is my specialty and I thought this would be a cool thing to check out. Science, bitch!!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah I can relate, I just graduated bachelors in mechanical engineering in May. I wish I had time and money to do what you'r edoing while in school, but now that I'm working and have more time to play I'm pondering what to do with my car.. I was wanting to swap to LSx all through school just because of the better engineering in the setup all together, but now I'm thinking of doing a home built 24x kit similar to yours and doing cam. My difference is I wouldn't mind boosting an LT1 and run it till it blows. Just swap another LT1 in for pennies and turn the boost down.

I like what you're doing, keep it up. Sorry for the nerd threadjack.

[shownomercy]

Yesssss, get a single plane and vortec in there!

That would make two boosted LT1s with that setup in existence :lol:

Also saves you from getting a billet timing cover etc.

[KLaBZ28]

Yesssss, get a single plane and vortec in there!

That would make two boosted LT1s with that setup in existence :lol:

Also saves you from getting a billet timing cover etc.

I think he will still need the billet cover with the double row chain and 24x reluctor wheel. He is just eliminating the 1x cam reluctor that bolts to the camshaft.

[shownomercy]

I think he will still need the billet cover with the double row chain and 24x reluctor wheel. He is just eliminating the 1x cam reluctor that bolts to the camshaft.

I am no expert but I think 96+ cars have been using double row timing sets for a long time prior to TPiS making covers.

[Catmaigne]

Hell yeah I can relate, I just graduated bachelors in mechanical engineering in May. I wish I had time and money to do what you'r edoing while in school, but now that I'm working and have more time to play I'm pondering what to do with my car.. I was wanting to swap to LSx all through school just because of the better engineering in the setup all together, but now I'm thinking of doing a home built 24x kit similar to yours and doing cam. My difference is I wouldn't mind boosting an LT1 and run it till it blows. Just swap another LT1 in for pennies and turn the boost down.

I like what you're doing, keep it up. Sorry for the nerd threadjack.

I would have graduated by now if I was more decisive early on. Got really fed up with my old major, school, debt, etc. and ended up withdrawing and working full time while trying to get my head together... I didn't have much direction in school and just needed some time to ponder what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Took some time to come around but I figured it out and working in retail was definitely a sobering experience. I know my bachelors is taking quite a bit longer than usual to complete but I don't mind. It means I can have enough time to work, build my car, and go to school simultaneously without being completely miserable. It's rough being a poor college kid which is why I'm doing my car in baby steps. That and a dramatic increase in power in a short period of time would probably be the end of me.

As for boosting a stock LT1, I'd just drop the compression and keep the revs low. Those TF 195 heads can be had for pretty cheap used and the chambers are 62cc as cast. I know they can be opened up to 67cc.


I am no expert but I think 96+ cars have been using double row timing sets for a long time prior to TPiS making covers.

My 96 timing cover will fit a double roller but the 24x reluctor will make contact with the lip for the crank seal from what I've read. Not sure if there's enough material to grind down but I know the billet cover is supposed to move the seal forward a bit for clearance. What sucks is that the cover is expensive as hell... $325 through TPiS is the cheapest I'm seeing (but I think it's straight from EFI b/c TPiS sells their kits). I wonder if TPiS or EFI would buy my cover as a core? If not I know they're a hot ticket item on the classifieds.

One idea for the CMP was to make or modify the opti sensor wheel for a 1x signal but I'm not crazy about that idea because a hall sensor can do the same thing more reliably. There would be no ozone from a gutted optispark so the sensor would last longer but when it goes I'm stuck buying a whole opti.

I do like the idea of the vortec dizzy for cam signal but I'm a little concerned about that tab breaking off. Could just be that the distributor was riding up like you said. I don't see many failures of the drive tabs in vortecs across the web, seems like the drive gear goes first. I noticed Chandler sells a "billet" vortec distributor for pretty cheap but I asked them a few questions about the piece and they're not helpful at all. Said it "probably" comes from the same factory as the Accel unit but I doubt it... the base looks cast. No idea if it's .427 or .491 or .5 and I don't think they know either. Would definitely want to replace the drive gear though.

Could kill two birds with one stone. A brand new EFI manifold and Edelbrock rails are pretty cheap. All I would need is an elbow, TB, angle washers, and some block off plates. Seems like a worthwhile investment as I'd be getting a used LE intake, 58mm throttle body, and modding the fuel lines for parallel otherwise.

[Catmaigne]

The 350 crank is sold. I broke even on that one. Didn't want to chance it with that thing and 600whp. Maybe with a better fillet radius and machining I'd be more willing.

[shownomercy]

I would have graduated by now if I was more decisive early on. Got really fed up with my old major, school, debt, etc. and ended up withdrawing and working full time while trying to get my head together... I didn't have much direction in school and just needed some time to ponder what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Took some time to come around but I figured it out and working in retail was definitely a sobering experience. I know my bachelors is taking quite a bit longer than usual to complete but I don't mind. It means I can have enough time to work, build my car, and go to school simultaneously without being completely miserable. It's rough being a poor college kid which is why I'm doing my car in baby steps. That and a dramatic increase in power in a short period of time would probably be the end of me.

My 96 timing cover will fit a double roller but the 24x reluctor will make contact with the lip for the crank seal from what I've read. Not sure if there's enough material to grind down but I know the billet cover is supposed to move the seal forward a bit for clearance. What sucks is that the cover is expensive as hell... $325 through TPiS is the cheapest I'm seeing (but I think it's straight from EFI b/c TPiS sells their kits). I wonder if TPiS or EFI would buy my cover as a core? If not I know they're a hot ticket item on the classifieds.

One idea for the CMP was to make or modify the opti sensor wheel for a 1x signal but I'm not crazy about that idea because a hall sensor can do the same thing more reliably. There would be no ozone from a gutted optispark so the sensor would last longer but when it goes I'm stuck buying a whole opti.

I do like the idea of the vortec dizzy for cam signal but I'm a little concerned about that tab breaking off. Could just be that the distributor was riding up like you said. I don't see many failures of the drive tabs in vortecs across the web, seems like the drive gear goes first. I noticed Chandler sells a "billet" vortec distributor for pretty cheap but I asked them a few questions about the piece and they're not helpful at all. Said it "probably" comes from the same factory as the Accel unit but I doubt it... the base looks cast. No idea if it's .427 or .491 or .5 and I don't think they know either. Would definitely want to replace the drive gear though.

Could kill two birds with one stone. A brand new EFI manifold and Edelbrock rails are pretty cheap. All I would need is an elbow, TB, angle washers, and some block off plates. Seems like a worthwhile investment as I'd be getting a used LE intake, 58mm throttle body, and modding the fuel lines for parallel otherwise.

I know all to well, it took my like 5-6 years to graduate from mechE school, transferred a couple times and what not. Def worth it though, as I tell people that ask me, went to engineering school cause I have expensive hobbies :lol:

As far as teh vortec thing, for me, I started with a single plane so it was cheap and logical to use. Adjusting it in car is not bad, its actually simple, but if you pull it out and lose oil pump engagement, well, your gonna have a baaad time. (both if you were just messing with it and if it was running) I like the simplicity of the single plane, and its arguably better distribution than a bread box, with a ton of options for elbows, spacers, nitrous plates etc etc. I will be at some point pulling my trashed vortec unit apart and seeing what it would take to replicate at work, but in the end, its gonna be cheaper to buy a new unit. My vortec is a billet piece from EFIconnection, got it for $125 I think.

With single planes don't forget you will need to find a way to attach MAP reference and all other vac/boost reference points some how. Mine just came with a brake line attachment port so some thinking will be needed if you want a clean look.

[Catmaigne]

I know there's 2 billet vortec dizzys through EFI...

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=1183
This is the discontinued one. I think it was based off of the Accel unit because I know the "BET" dist had a .491" shaft and you can see the cap/rotor base looks billet. I saw a thread on yellowbullet about the 1x wheels flying off at high rpm because they're screwed in.

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=623
I'm guessing this is the one you have. The base looks like cast aluminum just like the Chandler/eBay units.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BILLET-vortec-V8-5-7-350-5-0-305-7-4-454-distributor-/320605212568?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aa58f4f98&vxp=mtr
With the exception of the cap, does this look like the one you have? Could be the same thing but with a regular cap and rotor.

I'd like to know the difference in strength between the OEM Delco shafts and the ones in the eBay units... I know there's a Delco in a yard 10 minutes from my house. Tempted to go grab it.

But a 4340 rod can be had for under $10. Tempted to fab something anyway.

[shownomercy]

Yea, that ebay is like the one I have, billet lower, cast upper.

Oh, and if you do go vortec you will need a regular SBC dizzy hold down as you need to adjust it and the regular vortec hold down will not allow this.

[Catmaigne]

Good to know.

Have you ever tried removing the dizzy in the car? I think there should be enough room to pull the intake in the car but not the dizzy... I only measured 7.5" from the LT1 intake to the cowl. Probably just enough to get it out of the drive hole and slide everything forward. I was thinking if I ever needed to remove the intake I'd make sure to leave it at cyl #1 TDC so the pump driveshaft is aligned. Also would mark the dizzy and intake to make reinstall easier.

I emailed EFI asking if they'd do some sort of package deal for me... It's worth a shot because buying everything individually is gonna be expensive as hell.

[shownomercy]

Good to know.

Have you ever tried removing the dizzy in the car? I think there should be enough room to pull the intake in the car but not the dizzy... I only measured 7.5" from the LT1 intake to the cowl. Probably just enough to get it out of the drive hole and slide everything forward. I was thinking if I ever needed to remove the intake I'd make sure to leave it at cyl #1 TDC so the pump driveshaft is aligned. Also would mark the dizzy and intake to make reinstall easier.

I emailed EFI asking if they'd do some sort of package deal for me... It's worth a shot because buying everything individually is gonna be expensive as hell.

Never removed it, but I can easily get back there to twist it for adjustment. I would think you could pop it up, and slide it out with the intake no problem.

Down side is, you lose any way of turning the oil pump drive and the vortec needs to be "pre" twisted since the cam gear engagement is a helical one. It was difficult to do on the engine stand, I shudder to think of how it would be in the car engine bay. You would def need a bore scope and patience.

[Catmaigne]

I was thinking two scribes on the intake, one on the dizzy body, and one for the 1x wheel. A scribe for inserting the distributor and another to check alignment when seated.

EFI can't give me a deal so I guess I'm piecing together my own kit. I noticed some stuff is cheaper on their ebay store.

$36 ckp from EFI
$26 low pro dizzy cap from EFI
$150 24x wheel from EFI
$325 billet timing cover from TPiS or EFI
$33 junkyard coils, harnesses
$45 billet dizzy from eBay
$80 coil brackets and MSD super wires
$20 Taylor plug boots/terminals for coil packs
$15 junkyard 411 pcm
+ shipping for the 24x wheel and cover?
+ missing hardware and paint for the coil brackets

$730+ for the whole swap. I'll be repinning my harness myself.

All of the kits would have exceeded $975+ invested and then I have to worry about the stock plastic pump drive breaking so that's another $100 for the billet piece. Saving a few hundred here leaves money for the single plane swap, tune, and other crap.

Edit- forgot the pcm

[dawdaw]

You ever plan on going to the track with the car?

[Catmaigne]

You ever plan on going to the track with the car?
Of course! I need plenty more seat time, my 60's need work.

[dawdaw]

What are you're goals for it?

[Catmaigne]

I want to keep it a h/c/i car for a while and try to dial everything in. My best 60 was 1.8X after adjusting the tire pressure a few times on Toyo radials but I know more seat time is needed. Probably not going to make it that deep into the 11s with low comp but I'm curious to see how much I can shave off with weight reduction and suspension tweaks.

Gonna need a driver mod, fuel system, trans, and some more sfi stuff before amping up the power. Trying to do all of this gradually as opposed to half assing it all at once. Ultimate goal is to crack into single digit territory but that's going to take a lot of time and some serious work.

[KLaBZ28]

I know all to well, it took my like 5-6 years to graduate from mechE school, transferred a couple times and what not. Def worth it though, as I tell people that ask me, went to engineering school cause I have expensive hobbies :lol:

This is great, makes me feel better that other mech e's are messing with old technology too. It took my 6 years for mech e between doing side projects and started out in CAD and programming, its absolutely worth it, money for hobbies and also feel like I'm doing what I love. I actually thought about designing my own 24x wheel to save $$$ but the time and having a water-jet cut it would add up quick.

Back on topic;




But a 4340 rod can be had for under $10. Tempted to fab something anyway.

Yes, make one.. What is the big issue using the efi connections 1x cam reluctor, they fail commonly? Also have you thought about going with an auto? It would work with the boost real good but I know some people are die hard stick cars.. I'm hitting 1.6 60's with my bolt on only setup with a stalled auto.

[Catmaigne]

I can't seem to find any other drive tab failures with the ebay dizzy across the web. I went ahead and bought one for $45 after playing with a Delco unit in the junkyard. The bushings felt loose and I'd rather not fork over the cash for a new one. However, I do wanna go back and grab the Delco sensor to play with (and possibly swap in).

S10Wildside is the owner of EFI...
http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/534734-tpi-obd2-conversion-billet.html#post4227527

My eBay one shows up later today so I'll post up some pics. Pretty certain it's identical to what EFI, Summit, Rockauto (non-Delco), Davis, etc. are all selling with inflated prices. Gonna replace the drive gear if it's not too much.

I want to keep the car M6. The auto is best for straight line speed but anything that involves curves makes me nervous without a clutch pedal. A sudden downshift could mean snap oversteer and put you backwards into a tree.

Plus, I just spent all this money on a fancy clutch, flywheel, bellhousing lol

[KLaBZ28]

I can't seem to find any other drive tab failures with the ebay dizzy across the web. I went ahead and bought one for $45 after playing with a Delco unit in the junkyard. The bushings felt loose and I'd rather not fork over the cash for a new one. However, I do wanna go back and grab the Delco sensor to play with (and possibly swap in).

S10Wildside is the owner of EFI...
http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/534734-tpi-obd2-conversion-billet.html#post4227527

My eBay one shows up later today so I'll post up some pics. Pretty certain it's identical to what EFI, Summit, Rockauto (non-Delco), Davis, etc. are all selling with inflated prices. Gonna replace the drive gear if it's not too much.

I want to keep the car M6. The auto is best for straight line speed but anything that involves curves makes me nervous without a clutch pedal. A sudden downshift could mean snap oversteer and put you backwards into a tree.

Plus, I just spent all this money on a fancy clutch, flywheel, bellhousing lol

Nice score on the ebay one, that would be nice if its really the same thing.. I like the idea keeping it standard, it does cost more to build a stick car but its worth it esp for cornering.

[Catmaigne]

Looks like a decent part

[Catmaigne]

Other stuff showed up too.

My solution to the missing coil bracket hardware is coupling nuts and socket cap bolts. Just need to get the zinc off of them so they can be painted. I'm thinking about using truck bedliner paint if it can withstand the heat. The texture is really cool.

[Catmaigne]

.

[KLaBZ28]

Just get the high heat wrinkle finish black paint from an auto parts store.

[Catmaigne]

I'll have to go look for that. I've always had good luck with duplicolor stuff so hopefully they carry something high heat with the hammered look.
I soaked the coupling nuts in vinegar overnight to remove the zinc plating. Seems to have worked so it's almost time for paint.

The Motown EFI has been ordered for $180 shipped to my door. I want to see how much the carb pad can be milled without compromising any radii leading into runner roofs but I'm not gonna bother unless it's a considerable amount. I also would like to cut back the dividing walls in the plenum a tad to even out distribution while watching runner length. Seems like the inner 4 cylinders get less air than the outer 4.

I've been eying up the Edelbrock 3849 elbow too (the one with the divider). I just hope it will fit under my cowl and harwood with minimal cutting. I'd also like to know how much room is between the underside of a harwood and the top of my SLP strut tower brace. I wonder if it's possible to route a 3.5" intake tube from the elbow and over it. Hood isn't on the car yet so I have no idea.

[shownomercy]

The edelbrock ultra low profile elbow with a N20 plate under it will fit under stock cowl, stock hood and with wipers. That being said, if you are gonna be NA for awhile, its a lousy elbow. However, with a boosted app, as long as nothing leaks, don't over think things, boosted LSX guys use stock truck intakes...

[Catmaigne]

What intake are you running? Victor Jr/E or something taller? The Motown and Super Vic are about an inch taller. I know a wilson elbow and n20 plate will fit with some minor cowl cutting on top of a vortec Super Vic. The edelbrock elbow I'm looking at is taller (even w/o plate) but I'm not forking over $250+ for the wilson.

[Catmaigne]

That was fast. Came all the way from Florida in two days.

Definitely has enough meat to mill 5/16" off the top safely. Every little bit counts under the hood.

I'm not doing anything fancy to it. It already flows pretty well as cast but I'd still like to clean up the casting and unshroud those inner cylinders a bit.

[Catmaigne]

Did some measuring and there's a 0% chance of the 3849 fitting under there without some major surgery on the Harwood. The next step down is the 3848 which gives me 2" more clearance. I probably won't have get the carb pad milled to clear which is good. It's not the super low profile one and it has the divider so hopefully it won't choke the front cylinders when I'm running it NA or with less boost at low RPM.

Crank is straight. It only took the machinist 3 f'n weeks of procrastinating to finally check that for me but It still needs to be magnafluxed and polished. I was originally told a week for turnaround time... yeah, okay. I only went there because the shop is close to my house and supposedly has a good reputation in my area. Needless to say, I won't be going back.

[shownomercy]

Even the ultra low profile POS that I have has a divider in it.

Have you looked at Aaron's stuff at 6061.com?

[Catmaigne]

Yeah, but he doesn't have any prices listed. I guess it varies by app but I'm definitely too cheap for a custom elbow. Figured "if you have to ask..."

The ultra low pro elbow looks like it's necked down at the carb flange and barely has a radius. The flow for each is 860cfm for the ultra low profile, 950cfm for the short one I'm looking at, and 1050cfm for the one that won't fit (all measured with 90mm tb). The big one can take a 95mm tb but that's probably overkill for a 383 LT.

[Catmaigne]

Got bored and polished the dizzy cap a bit. Could use more work but nobody is going to see it in the back of my engine bay anyway.

Waiting on more parts. I bought a lightly used eddy 90mm tb for $220 shipped. I can't believe those things go for $350-400 new.

Was gonna tear my motor out this weekend but it's cold as hell. I'm gonna start disassembling things.

Edit: more pics

Might have to do some milling after all. The Eddy elbow is supposed to be 5.04" but the throttle body flange looks like the tallest spot. Not sure how tall the elbow is under the cowl, looks like it will be close. Might just get the intake milled anyway, it's pretty cheap.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/a_zps0d71e3d9.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/b_zps9e385ec3.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/c_zps9f25e927.jpg

[KLaBZ28]

...I only went there because the shop is close to my house and supposedly has a good reputation in my area. Needless to say, I won't be going back.

I hate when that happens, try to help the local community but they still don't care..

The manifold looks pretty nice good choice. Interested to see the fitment under the cowl with the elbow.

[shownomercy]

FYI, the edelbrock is a damb odd size OD wise, was a nightmare to find the right silicone adapt or for mine.

[firebird_1995]

If you haven't bought an elbow yet I could get you a price on a custom one. I've been meaning to make up some drawings for some and see what the material / waterjet would cost. Welding it together is the easy part.

[popo8]

Cut the cowl and call it a day lol

[Catmaigne]

I hate when that happens, try to help the local community but they still don't care..

The manifold looks pretty nice good choice. Interested to see the fitment under the cowl with the elbow.

It really sucks because I've used them once before and encountered the same BS. I decided to give them another chance after a few local guys talked me into it but that was a mistake. They're the only "race shop" in my area and they're coming off as a bunch of hacks. Should have gone to Carquest... Would have been done in a day.

I really like the intake for what I paid. You can get a Super Hurricane (slightly better) for about the same price from KMJ but it's too tall. The only shorter EFI choices are the Vic Jr and Vic E but both are $100+ more and need runner work (the Vic Jr needs a ton).


FYI, the edelbrock is a damb odd size OD wise, was a nightmare to find the right silicone adapt or for mine.

I read 110mm. I'll figure it out. Beats spending twice as much for a new NW or FAST one. Couldn't find either of those used for a reasonable price.


If you haven't bought an elbow yet I could get you a price on a custom one. I've been meaning to make up some drawings for some and see what the material / waterjet would cost. Welding it together is the easy part.

I use the words custom and expensive interchangeably. Do you have a ballpark estimate for how much it would cost? Not trying to spend over $150-200 when I think the Edelbrock one will do just fine for ~$100.


Cut the cowl and call it a day lol

Probably what's gonna end up happening lol. I just don't want to cut too much into the harwood and have to re-fiberglass big sections.

[firebird_1995]

I use the words custom and expensive interchangeably. Do you have a ballpark estimate for how much it would cost? Not trying to spend over $150-200 when I think the Edelbrock one will do just fine for ~$100.



No idea to be honest. I just need to draw one up and see what he would charge me for the materials. That's really going to be the biggest determining factor. On some things he has been crazy cheap and keeps following up with me, asking if I need the pieces, other times he lays it on thick (in my opinion) and I don't hear anything back from him. Guess it just depends on how much work came in that week. I'll see what he says.

[popo8]

...



Probably what's gonna end up happening lol. I just don't want to cut too much into the harwood and have to re-fiberglass big sections.


Will it affect the hood...? Cant just notching the cowl under the windshield make it happen. Maybe I meed to re read ur measurments.

Also

Firebirds idea is excellent...

[Catmaigne]

Returning the eddy one is no big deal. Let me know if it's not much more than the cast one. I'm partial to the dividers so that might make it expensive.

The deal with the hood is that the back of the harwood comes down and meets the weatherstripping. I'll have to look and see where it lands because if I notch the cowl I might have to notch it too.

[shownomercy]

Returning the eddy one is no big deal. Let me know if it's not much more than the cast one. I'm partial to the dividers so that might make it expensive.

The deal with the hood is that the back of the harwood comes down and meets the weatherstripping. I'll have to look and see where it lands because if I notch the cowl I might have to notch it too.

Some info on dividers
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=643866&page=4

I would not worry as much as you are about that sort of stuff, you already are compromising with a low elbow and you are going to be boosted at some point.

[Catmaigne]

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1051645-new-intake-going-2.html#post10899671

http://www.edelbrock.com/news_release/images/EFI/3814_95MM_DOMINTATOR_1.jpg
http://www.edelbrock.com/news_release/images/EFI/DOMINATOR_ELBOW_95MM_NO_FIN.jpg

It seems like going from breadbox to single plane moves starvation from the rear cylinders to the front. It's definitely way less severe because of carb pad location but anything to help even out airflow is a good thing.

Honestly, I highly doubt any of this even matters. The cast elbow will suffice, divider or not, and at $100 I couldn't say no. The more I look at these sheet metal elbows the less I like them. I'm seeing sharp edges instead of radii which seems like it would create unnecessary turbulence. A 90mm throttle body and this elbow will definitely support the 383 I'm piecing together.

Would rather put that money elsewhere...

[Catmaigne]

$235 for Aaron's elbow... ya that's too much for a cheap-ass like me

[Catmaigne]

Not gonna clear the cowl but it's super close and milling might do the trick. Gonna mock it up when the rain stops.

I'm diggin this.

[shownomercy]

Shave down the elbow, toss a nice steel square around the top of the flange and you should have no issues what so ever.

If you are feeling brave, drill the intake threads and install helicoils. My intake has a stripped thread from previous owner, probably over use and cross threading.

[Catmaigne]

.

[Catmaigne]

I see what you mean about the TB being an odd size. The opening is huge compared to the butterfly.

I was thinking about getting a reducer from this size (110mm) to 3.5"~. Is this a good size for intercooler piping or too big?

[shownomercy]

I see what you mean about the TB being an odd size. The opening is huge compared to the butterfly.
I was thinking about getting a reducer from this size (110mm) to 3.5"~. Is this a good size for intercooler piping or too big?

I went 4.5 to 3 inch reducer off the TB to cold side. It was a bitch to find lol

I have a 4inch core IC so it has 3 inch in/out, which realquick just stuck with on cold side pipe sizing. I think a general rule of thumb is take the smallest size in the system and don't go smaller. Turbo comp outlet is rather small on mine, small T4 unit.

[Catmaigne]

I see some 4.25" couplers which is close at 108mm. Don't have an intercooler yet but I'm sure a 3.5 in/out isn't hard to find. I wonder what the vortecg amd procharger kits come with...

[Catmaigne]

It's gonna be really close, even after milling. Looks like I'll be cutting no matter what.

[shownomercy]

Could always shim the K member down a little with a washer.

[Catmaigne]

I have a dilemma...

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/rails_zpsbe94668a.jpg

The Edelbrock and Professional Products fuel rails are both the wrong spacing for the Motown intake. I measured up the stock rails and the dimensions are even weirder (especially because the injectors are slightly angled). So this means I need to make my own fuel rail which is no big deal. I already picked up the extrusions for pretty cheap.

I have 2 sizes to choose from which are for -6an and -8an o-ring fittings. The stock LT1 fuel lines should be plenty (only 3/8" or -6an) with another 255 added in-tank. I'm leaning towards the 6an extrusion rails run in parallel but I'm a little bit concerned.

Cross sectional area
LT1 rail (<5/8 ID) - .307
Edelbrock rail (9/16 ID) - .249
6an (1/2 ID) - .196
8an (11/16 ID) - .374

The 8an rail in parallel is definitely wayyyy too much fuel. Hard to really put a power figure on the 6an rails but I keep seeing the 11/16" rails rated at 2000+ hp on v8 engines. Is it safe to assume that the 6an line is capable of 1000+ on an engine with the same bsfc being that it contains half the fuel? Another thing to consider would be pulsation in the rails but I don't think I should be worried with dual pumps, a parallel system, not crazy RPMs, and FPR with built in damper.

[shownomercy]

I would stick with 6an rails, you will save on getting a ton of 8an stuff and its really not needed.

Step up the feed line and return line size if you are worried. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry, I have no issue with 6an and my rails aren't even parallel.

Simple is, as simple does here.

[Catmaigne]

It's less so the feed/return line that worries me and more the volume of the rail itself. Pressure spikes from injectors opening/closing that have to be replenished through the tiny 6an orifice. I was thinking about maybe drilling out the ends large enough to fit a 8an barb (.44 ID vs .34, twice the cross section) and then having it welded in but IDK. Maybe the pressure spikes are nominal when the rail is nearing 60psi with a FMU.

[Catmaigne]

Wish I knew more about fluid dynamics... didn't think I'd ever say that lol

[shownomercy]

It's less so the feed/return line that worries me and more the volume of the rail itself. Pressure spikes from injectors opening/closing that have to be replenished through the tiny 6an orifice. I was thinking about maybe drilling out the ends large enough to fit a 8an barb (.44 ID vs .34, twice the cross section) and then having it welded in but IDK. Maybe the pressure spikes are nominal when the rail is nearing 60psi with a FMU.


Wish I knew more about fluid dynamics... didn't think I'd ever say that lol

Missed the CSA on the 6an rail, thats small...

I have edelbrock rails, with 6an feeds and they have not been an issue. I retract my previous statement and say go with large rails with stepped down fittings to 6an. (its been a couple stiff sailor jerry drinks night :lol:)

You don't have access to CFD at school? Toughest part will be modeling the pulses.

[Catmaigne]

I do but I'm on thanksgiving break right now! I'd have to find someone to help me too lol

What sucks is that there are 9/16 and 5/8 ID rails out there but neither are cheap compared to the Ross extrusions. I feel like the gigantic 8an rails will give me less headroom with the fuel pumps because it's more volume to pressurize. Might have to bite the bullet and get the expensive ones.

[Catmaigne]

Finally got around to pulling the motor out of my car. #8 rod bearing was spun. Now it's rebuild time! Probably just gonna use my block because my search for a reasonably priced core has been unsuccessful.

I also scored a set of almost new Siemens Deka 60lb injectors on eBay for $190. One more piece of the puzzle.

[Catmaigne]

I completely tore down the motor in the daylight to see the full extent of the damage. Not only was the #8 rod bearing toast, but there was another rod bearing that was horribly worn and the #2 main was so trashed that the crank journal is burnt. The motor still had acceptable oil pressure but I knew its time had come when it developed what sounded like a tap and dropped about 10psi of cruising oil pressure. Doesn't look like the debris damaged anything else in the motor, everything else looks great.

Here are the injectors... "60lb" Siemens Dekas aka Mototrons aka Accel aka Edge that actually flow 63.5 lbs/hr @ 3 bar. This will get the job done and should have good idle quality.
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j352/Catmaigne/inject_zps19aa0720.jpg

I haven't had much luck selling my Mahles to finance the custom pistons. Being that they couldn't be returned and I didn't want take a hit by selling them for super low, I've decided to run them with shorter rods. The 5.85" Eagles were an absolute steal when purchased and I could easily turn a profit on them. I ordered another set of Eagle 4340 H-beams with the same ARP 2000 bolts in 5.7" length for $440 (yay, black friday!!!!) so now I can use my Mahle kit. I've been pretty indecisive but that was a compromise that I had to make if this car is going to be back together before next spring. I don't have time to peddle parts and don't think the change in rod length was significant enough to lose sleep over.

I've also decided on using the gargantuan Ross 8 fuel rails I already have. Can't seem to find any negative side effects of having more fuel volume present in the rails. Overkill but it works.

Also, I did more mocking up on the intake.
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/9479_10152609384384615_1356115461873179576_n.jpg?o h=d34cedc09ae8afb8c16fb7ffdf6105e3&oe=55170B9E

[shownomercy]

60# sticks are pretty small no? Thought you wanted some boost?

And IDK if I mentioned it but the hold down for the dizzy, you need a SBC one not the vortec one that came with it.

[Catmaigne]

60s will definitely support it. I plan on running a 1:1 fmu and maybe bumping the pressure up a bit at the regulator.

Already bought the hold down for $5.

[Catmaigne]

Any idea what springs I should run or seat pressure I'd need @ a max of 15psi? I was thinking of running the BTR platinum duals which have 155lbs seat at 1.780" installed height.

[blackbirdws6]

150 minimum with all things perfect but I would go to 165.

[Catmaigne]

Alright, that sounds good. At what point does it become too much for a HR lifter? Don't wanna put extra strain on the lifters, rockers, studs, pushrods, etc. I also need to figure out what lifters I'll be running because I definitely don't want Delcos. I'm hoping Morels or something nicer won't completely empty my wallet.

[shownomercy]

A valvetrain tech guy will laugh when you tell him you are running +400lb open, and then recommend SR.

Myself and blackbird went with crower link bars, because black pit money holes. Round 400 for the set and that's a mid range link bar set, you can spend 600-800 on top of the line ones.

[Catmaigne]

Looks like the Howards and Lunatis are actually repackaged Morels. I found the street link bars (5290) for $340 which isn't bad. But will they survive?

Is the 5206 really needed?
edit: I posted a link but realized they wouldn't work.

Can't seem to find the Crowers.

[blackbirdws6]

Search crower 66310LM. On 15lbs I was perhaps seeing some float up top with the springs setup for around 150lbs. Where I'm at now, I def had float. All were using LS7 lifters lol. I must have had a magic batch.

[Ryan Stout]

Fwiw, I run about 200# seat 440#open, 22-23psi, no float on LS7 lifters. Amazingly, no lifter noise either.

[Catmaigne]

I'm trying to avoid the LS7s because I keep seeing trashed motors and cams from the rollers coming apart, not necessarily float. I think the seat pressure and lobes are going to be too harsh on them (cam specs will be similar to 224/236 114LSA with <.600 on both). I really don't want a $100 set of OEM lifters destroying an expensive custom cam and possibly my motor.

I looked up the Crowers and they seem to be around $460+. I know where I can get Morel 5206s for $520. Not sure if the Morel is worth it because I can't find much info on the Crower.

On an unrelated note...
Wanna hear some BS? I was comparing the stock pistons from my motor to the new Mahles I bought. There seemed to be no difference in top land thickness between the two pistons despite the .326" spec given to me about a year ago before purchasing the set (the major deciding factor). I also spoke to the same tech not that long ago who double-checked the spec when discussing the thicknesses of a few other shelf pistons (was thinking about getting a larger dish piston) and was told .326" was correct.

30957

Looks like they fudged the spec on their end because it's actually .236", not .326". Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gotta love it when a manufacturer can't even give you reliable specs on a part they designed. So now I have a ton of money in these and don't even know if I want to use them anymore. And what really sucks is that I'm probably going to have to return the set of rods that I just ordered to use these specific slugs.

Granted, I'm sure these pistons will survive in my motor because it'll only see 10psi regularly (would be 9.4:1, FMIC, 93 pump gas) and then a max of 15psi with water/meth... The question is how long will they survive? The tune really comes into play here. I chose 4032 for longevity but the fact that the piston is thin makes me nervous.

[shownomercy]

Don't rattle em with knock or burn em bringing in torque to fast too low rpm wise.

Keep the IATs down and you should be fine. People play with fire on stock hyper pistons with decent luck.

[Catmaigne]

Probably just going to run them at this point. No turning back now. The LS9 (forged) and LSA (cast) pistons both have thinner top lands at .217 and .219 but seem to do just fine in OEM apps (although they have no valve reliefs). Being that this is a 383 and the top end will be decent, I'm definitely not going to need as much boost as before so I'm not gonna worry about it. I don't think any additional power beyond my goal will be useable in a stick car anyway so I'll refrain from amping up the boost when it's done.

Need to figure out where to get this thing tuned too... The 24x makes things much less complicated. Who's everyone using? ECS?

I decided to ditch the Trick Flows a little while ago. They needed more work than I bargained for so they gotta go. Picked a brand new assembled set of AFR 210 Eliminators instead from a build that was being parted out. The only problem is that the springs included are total overkill for my setup (220/475 seat/open) and have to be swapped out for something that won't beat the piss out of my valvetrain but still handle boost.

The crank came home today after almost 2 months. Gonna mic it again tomorrow to be sure everything is good. It was only polished so it should be fine.

[shownomercy]

Tune time performance in NJ did mine and will be doing Blackbirdws6, I was very pleased with them.

[Catmaigne]

Alright, there are a few different guys I was considering so I will keep them in mind. Was really wondering how much it would cost to have Byran Herter do the tune but I don't think he's in the area too ofter for dyno tunes (other side of PA). Was thinking the final tune will be speed density in closed loop. Will keep the stock MAF for NA.

Rods came in today. Pretty much the last parts I needed for the shortblock work to begin so now it's time to get things machined. Will be making a few calls next week to get the ball rolling.

[firebird_1995]

I know you said you didn't plan on pushing yours hard but I was running 14# on pump gas, 9:1 compression, on an srp 4032 (pn 148750) intercooled with 75° iats, no meth, running 18° of timing, high 10's on afr, and still melted a slug. Hopefully the Mahle has a better ring land design than the srp. After talking with mark from probe, I have decided to go with their 2618 pistons with .225 tool steel wrist pins. Your setup is going to make more steam than you think with those heads and the right cam.

[Catmaigne]

What was the dish on the srp?

edit: Just noticed the part # and it's -31cc, holy crap

Found a picture...

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/xdeifiedcamaross/IMG_20111116_211442.jpg

I wonder what the top land is on these.

[Catmaigne]

I noticed a lot of the failed SRP pistons with cracked lands I was looking at have a dish that gets deep too close to the edge and makes the space behind the top ring groove very thin. Same goes for the valve reliefs. I chose the Mahle early on because the dish is shallow and looked gradual.

http://ltxtech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26820&d=1390634130

Wasn't the tune on that motor jacked up? I kinda changed my mind about using these after seeing a post from Mark O'Neal of Probe...

If everything is right in the tune up it doesn't matter how we make the pistons.

If something is wrong in the tune up it doesn't matter how we make the pistons.
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=214011&sid=2ceaf3a1f1f54d5be03f051cfee491ca#p214011

[firebird_1995]

There are a lot of failures on the srp pistons. However I dont think its so much the piston to blame as nuch of the ring gap. Golen uses srp pistons exclusively in their boosted engines and claims to add boost and you have 750hp. If you call srp and ask them, they will tell you their 4032 alloy is only good to 750hp. Above that the recommend their extreme duty (2618) line. I heard that from the horses mouth.

The previous owners tune was jacked up in the pcm on the car the engine was originally in. Very lean. I bought the engine, replaced the pistons with the exact same pn, file the rings for boost and have every datalog for ever time it's been driven. I've had 5 accel emic (tuners) look at my logs and tune and they all agree I was running safe rich and conservative ignition. It still melted a piston as seen on a scope. Initially i felt that having the opti come apart on its first wot run could have caused MY damage (melted crown, not the cracked ring lands, thst i know of yet) due to the ignition possibly being over advanced. However after talking with others and thinking about it logically, it would have retarded the timing as it came loose. So i wouldnt expect detonation from that. Now in my case I just have one piston melted, the argument could be raised that the injector failed. After I pull the head I'll know for sure.

And you are very much correct in that a sharp area or one with little material will melt away easier than a piston with a flat top or non dish design. Prior to buying these probe pistons I looked my ass off to find a set of flat tops that I could run in an undecked block but the problem with flat tops is that they are not typically made for higher cylinder pressure.

[Catmaigne]

I asked around and was told it to run meth beyond 10lbs with ~9.3:1 compression, 93 octane, and an intercooler. The techs at Mahle told me I should be fine up to 15 with good tuning but I would definitely run out of injector before that.

Curious to see what went wrong with this SRP.

[firebird_1995]

It's crazy what you'll be told by people in the industry when it comes to compression ratio, boost, and what is safe. Feast your eyes on this hot garbage...
I asked if my accel dfi will run low impedance injectors told this very well known tuner about my setup and this was his reply


"Yes the dfi can run either low or high impedance injectors. But the key to what you have told me below is this "I understand no piston will survive a poor tune"

Now that being said I don't know anymore than what you have told me here. But... If your melting pistons your tune is in left field.

#1 Your wide band is ether calibrated wrong or your not paying any attention to it.

#2 Delphi injectors are junk don't use them.....period....

#3 Sounds like your running injectors static or over pressure. Duty cycle must be NO more than 87%

#4 Fuel octane must be appropriate for final compression developed.

So before you ran 93 octane on 9 to 1 plus 14lbs = 17.6 to 1

Now you want to run PUMP E-85 @ 10 to 1 plus 18lbs = 22.2 to 1

Both these combinations will have abnormal combustioncharacteristics to make any power and will get hurt doing so.

PUMP E-85 is Ethanol and 87 octane blend.Capableof sustaining 11.5 to 1 MAX

We blend an E-85 using 116 race fuel that sustains 13.5 to 1. (hold Suzuki records)


That being said your old setup needed 116 to make proper power WITH the correct injector. Knowing no more than I do I can assure you your going to hurt parts with these combo's. Just because so in so has done it, doesn't make it right nor help it live. Do it the right way the first time."

So I guess by this professionals standards, you better break out the c16 lol

[firebird_1995]

To answer his questions,
1) my dfi will shut off if the tune goes lean under boost. Plus datalogs show rich.

2)I was running Siemens deka injectors

3) base fuel pressure was set to 60 psi. Not exactly over pressure for that style of injector. Duty cycle was at 90% at peak power.

#4) His theory here lacks one small thing I feel, and that is DYNAMIC compression. The cam is going to bleed off some of that compression as a normal part of the combustion process. By his laws, our stock lt1's with shim head gaskets should all be running race fuel... sorry but I'm not buying that.

I do like the design of that Mahle piston though. The edge looks very soft and subtle. Not abrupt and sharp. You should be fine, especially with meth

[Catmaigne]

I don't understand how any of those guidelines can even apply considering that there are plenty of production engines out there making ridiculous power on setups that are nowhere near ideal. The LS9 and current GT500's Coyote are both using 4032 forged Mahles and I'd be surprised if the new Hellcat isn't. The LSA's pistons are cast and very similar in construction to the LS9's (~.220 top land, no reliefs, shallow dish). All of these motors get pushed beyond those OEM limits and seem to take the abuse if done right. I can see it boiling down to a few simple things. Piston design-- heat dissipation behind the top ring is absolutely critical (accounts for 45% of losses to coolant) and top land thickness doesn't tell the whole story. Alloy quality-- not all 4032 alloys are created equal and I doubt a cheapo $300 set can compare in strength to nicer forgings. Safe tuning-- detonation can claim any piston regardless of alloy or price.

But then hear the online BS I see old charts like this and it makes me laugh. The context is wrong. If I was to run 92 octane in a "street car" with 10psi then I would need a compression ratio of 7:1 for things to be safe... lol okay

http://www.onallcylinders.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Compression-Ratio.jpg

[firebird_1995]

I agree completely. And I instantly lose respect for the "tuners" that revert to those tables or ancient compression table guidelines. I personally wasn't concerned with the greater longevity offered by the 4032 alloy as my car has only seen a of maximum of 100-200 miles in the last 2 years.

[shownomercy]

I asked around and was told it to run meth beyond 10lbs with ~9.3:1 compression, 93 octane, and an intercooler. The techs at Mahle told me I should be fine up to 15 with good tuning but I would definitely run out of injector before that.

Curious to see what went wrong with this SRP.

I would bet you come very very close to out of injector well before 15psi. On LT1 rail pressure I was out of 80# sticks, and I am only 10psi.

Start safe with the tune, and if you are using meth, make sure the computer can catch itself if the meth system fails.

[Catmaigne]

4032 is a compromise. If my car was a dedicated track car then it would be 2618 all day.

Are you running a FMU? 80lb injectors with 10lbs of boost pushing back on them is only 70lbs net without it and the bsfc of a turbo car should be slightly higher than supercharged. The 60lb Siemens Dekas are actually 62.7lbs at 3 bar. I don't have a FPR yet but I was thinking about 3.5 bar for rail pressure and a 1:1 FMU so the net flow of the injector would be constant at 67.8lbs. I can always go to 4 bar LS style rail pressure which would mean 72.4lbs but not unless I have to.

Both of these guys were running 60s and are in the same realm but with turbo cars
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forced-induction-10/lt1-boost-customer-roll-call-838530/#post6820405
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forced-induction-10/lt1-boost-customer-roll-call-838530/#post6820416

[Catmaigne]

The biggest reason I've been trying to stay away from the 80lb Dekas is that all of the ones I've seen with EV1 plugs have that shitty pencil spray pattern... as if their idle characteristics weren't already at a disadvantage from huge flow. I think the cone would really help down low.

[shownomercy]

4032 is a compromise. If my car was a dedicated track car then it would be 2618 all day.

Are you running a FMU? 80lb injectors with 10lbs of boost pushing back on them is only 70lbs net without it and the bsfc of a turbo car should be slightly higher than supercharged. The 60lb Siemens Dekas are actually 62.7lbs at 3 bar. I don't have a FPR yet but I was thinking about 3.5 bar for rail pressure and a 1:1 FMU so the net flow of the injector would be constant at 67.8lbs. I can always go to 4 bar LS style rail pressure which would mean 72.4lbs but not unless I have to.

Both of these guys were running 60s and are in the same realm but with turbo cars
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forced-induction-10/lt1-boost-customer-roll-call-838530/#post6820405
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forced-induction-10/lt1-boost-customer-roll-call-838530/#post6820416

I run a boost ref fuel reg, so base is ~50, and at WOT, bumps to 60psi area. Thats how my tuner prefers vs the locked in fuel pressure setups.


The biggest reason I've been trying to stay away from the 80lb Dekas is that all of the ones I've seen with EV1 plugs have that shitty pencil spray pattern... as if their idle characteristics weren't already at a disadvantage from huge flow. I think the cone would really help down low.

To be honest, I run the 80# deka stuff cause its the cheapest large injector you can get in high Z before stepping up to FIC/ID etc. Which is a few hundred to a grand and change.

Maybe I missed it but what are you power goals, the first post of thread indicates the goal to touch 9s?

[Catmaigne]

Power goal has always been around 600whp but the switch to 383 and single plane is making me a bit nervous about overshooting in a 6-speed car. 383 @ 9.4:1, AFR 210s, big single plane, homebrew FMIC, LT's into a 4" single exhaust ala Mufflex, and 10psi through a T-trim is going to be interesting... Might be a better idea to go a step down to the S/P1SC but the blower will be maxed.

Touching 9's is going to take some serious work but I'm less concerned about that. Weight reduction will probably be the first mod (all I care about is that the interior appears somewhat put together, has 2 front seats, a radio, and functional heat). Then I'll need wheels and tires (some real slicks). After that the suspension will get sorted as I go along and slowly amp things up all while working on the driver mod. Trying to avoid dyno queen status by doing everything at once and making it completely undriveable from a dig. If it gets to the point where I need more power then things will get turned up from there. The biggest limitation I see right now is the choice of piston, but I'm not going to blow up my car over an ET. Hell, anything that runs 10s is interesting enough.

[shownomercy]

Unless my car is tuned so ungodly rich and safely that 80# are needed, I would feel safe betting you will need more fuel. :lol:

You have a much more potent combo than me, only downside is how hot your IAT's will get due to your SC.

[Catmaigne]

There's always the mentality of "let's just put a crazy FMU on it and see what happens," but I'm not sure how I feel about 80psi+ in a fuel rail I screwed together with AN fittings. I'll only switch to a bigger injector if I run out of fuel early or more power is needed, but that's no big deal because I could easily make my money back on these 60s. The answers I've seen about injector requirements seem to vary though so I guess I'll find out. The online calculators suck too.

If I could snag a turbo kit for cheap or weld worth a damn I'd be all over that. Unfortunately, my welder is garbage (dinky flux) and my beads look like bird poop sometimes lol. No shortage of Vortech kits floating around though...

[firebird_1995]

I've got a set of 80# Siemens ev6 injectors with the ev1 adapters I'll be selling soon for #120s. I was running 60# at 58psi and I can honestly say they didn't care for that

[Catmaigne]

How much power were you making? or what ET?

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
(http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx)
Power loss should be around or less than 20% for my car (T56 and a 9").
I'll be generous and assume the engine makes around 800bhp --> 640rwhp.
The BSFC should be between .55-.60 for a supercharged app so I'll say .60.
Max duty cycle will be 85% because 640 is already more than enough (don't think I'll need any more headroom).
So if I make rail pressure 55psi the recommended injector rating at 3 bar is 62.8 lb = Deka 60s.

I think popo is running the same injector on a similar setup (bigger heads but no single plane). I see the LS guys running 60s making more power with similar pressures without issue.
popo8 What's your max duty cycle? I'm curious

[firebird_1995]

10.39 at 131 and 3750# through the power robbing 80e and a 9"

[Ryan Stout]

10.39 at 131 and 3750# through the power robbing 80e and a 9"
Losing a full second through that 80!

[dawdaw]

Power glide time .. my dekas are 63.5 lb at 3 bar. Are yours flow matched

[Catmaigne]

I doubt they're flow matched so I was going to get the set flowed for a few bucks to make any adjustments. My fear is that there will be a few that flow substantially less than the others so the duty cycle will be super high which makes me uncomfortable. It really sucks because a set of flow matched Deka 80s are expensive as hell and still have the 6* pencil stream. Don't know if that spec is right though. I'm gonna email FIC and ask.

I really wish there were high flow Bosch IIIs out there for a reasonable price, not those cheap imposters floating around. I like their 15* pattern the most.

edit: Question to anyone with 80lb Dekas... how's the idle?

[shownomercy]

I doubt they're flow matched so I was going to get the set flowed for a few bucks to make any adjustments. My fear is that there will be a few that flow substantially less than the others so the duty cycle will be super high which makes me uncomfortable. It really sucks because a set of flow matched Deka 80s are expensive as hell and still have the 6* pencil stream. Don't know if that spec is right though. I'm gonna email FIC and ask.

I really wish there were high flow Bosch IIIs out there for a reasonable price, not those cheap imposters floating around. I like their 15* pattern the most.

edit: Question to anyone with 80lb Dekas... how's the idle?

My car idles cleanly and smoothly. I believe BLS has the same injectors, blackbirdws6

[blackbirdws6]

No issues on my 80s and idle has always been smooth. Had them cleaned and tested and all were nearly identical in flow.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[GuillaumeC]

edit: Question to anyone with 80lb Dekas... how's the idle?

I upgraded from the 63's to the 80's on the Caprice, no difference in idle quality. Idled fine in my 355ci motor. :)

[Catmaigne]

I was right, the spray pattern is a narrow 6* pencil stream for the 80s which also happen to be twice the price of my 60s for a matched set. The only useable high flow injector I'm seeing with a better spray pattern is the newer Bosch EV14 but they're not flow matched and expensive as hell. But I don't think I can really justify getting either Deka 80s or even Bosch EV14s at the moment being that my motor still needs a cam, lifters, rockers, hub, timing cover, reluctor, water pump, a million odds/ends, and a ton of machine work. So I can either run the 60s early on or sell them and just buy another set of "36lb" Bosch III's. Never had a problem with those guys and they're dirt cheap for a matched set.

I've been talking to Mike @ EFI about getting a blem timing cover. They upped the price another $25 not that long ago so now it's $375 for one of those things... I'm about ready to get a 96-97 cover and use 2 gaskets because that's ludicrous. It's not going to make my car any slower.

[GuillaumeC]

What about these?

http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=01D129x&eq=01D129x-8&Tp=

[Catmaigne]

I do like those but I would need to find out the angle... and $510 lol :cry: Not sure if I would be better off with a newer flow matched Bosch or Multec for that much (if I can find one).

I wonder if the TRE and other Bosch style injectors have genuine Bosch internals and just different pintles...

[GuillaumeC]

Or just keep your 63's and buy my 80's when I upgrade to a set of ID1000 :)

[Catmaigne]

How old and were they flow matched? I'll probably be interested

[GuillaumeC]

I used them one summer so far, maybe 1000 miles total. They are flow matched.

This is what I have: http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FI114992&eq=&Tp=

[Catmaigne]

Hueheuehheueheue

There's some very light scratching on the deck of one head so I'll be getting them milled the smallest possible amount. Kinda expected that so I'm not pissed or anything.

[GuillaumeC]

210's?

[Catmaigne]

yeeeeeeeees

[Catmaigne]

What fuel pressure regulators are people using? I've heard mixed things about the aeromotive adjustable one. Can't use the stocker b/c I won't be able to hook it up to my rails.

[shownomercy]

Aeromotive here, 6an thing.

[Catmaigne]

That's probably the one I want, pn 13129. 1:1 boost ref ratio. But all of the internet fear mongers say I'm going to light my car on fire.

The internet sucks.

[shownomercy]

Mine is a couple years old, and I did get a few thousand DD miles on it, no issues.

[Catmaigne]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDM0Mg==/z/9P4AAOSwaNBUiGhY/$_12.JPG

Does it look like this?

[GuillaumeC]

Aeromotive here, 6an thing.

Same here

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aei-13101/overview/

[shownomercy]

Same here

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aei-13101/overview/

That is the one I have as well.

[Catmaigne]

Probably just going to pick one up on the classifieds. I can always rebuild it if needed.

The little things are killing me right now.

[shownomercy]

Probably just going to pick one up on the classifieds. I can always rebuild it if needed.

The little things are killing me right now.

The little things always do :lol:

Wait till you get to the fittings/hose purchasing stage..

[Ryan Stout]

Dude the fitting and hose stage SUCKS

[Catmaigne]

I've already been looking at them. The pricing is criminal for these little AN fittings. Luckily, I know someone selling a bunch so hopefully I can get most of them pretty cheap.

[Catmaigne]

31085
Here's my very crude MS paint diagram of how I want to plumb the rails. The send and return up top will be vertical.