Need opinions on purchasing a '96 WS6 vs a '01 WS6

[Yosho]

Hi guys, I'm in the market, and have found two very interesting WS6 Trans-Ams. I haven't been able to see either in person yet, so we'll put that aside, but supposedly both are cream puff garage queens. Both are Black, t-tops, m6, with the earlier style chrome WS6 rims. Both are accident free and are 9/10 or 10/10 for interior/paint. Both are modified. The '96 has high 70k miles on it but has had a full resto/upgrade done to the engine and suspension in the last few k miles (last few years). It is supposedly putting down just shy of 400whp on a mustang dyno. I have the complete mod list for the car, including pics and videos (I'll post the specs below). The asking price is 14.5k (yes, I know that's a lot in most people's books for a '96). I've been in contact with the owner, and have gone so far as to get a loan to cover the cost of the car. The loan will be paid off when I sell my other cars it will be replacing. Unfortunately, this car isn't local to me, so I would have to fly out and drive it back... Which is great as long as I don't get off the plane and find anything disappointing. I'm a big fan of these cars and may be one of the few who don't like the later f-bodies styling changes as much as the original design. I prefer the tail lights, and front clip of the '96 over the '01. Now, I was pretty set on this car until I found a motivated seller with a modified '01 asking 15k. The '01 only has mid 40k miles on her, also has a full suspension, bolt ons, and h/c upgrades and is tuned to make 450whp on a dyno jet (I think). I know less about this car as I just found it, but I have no reason to think it's anything other than a good deal. The seller had been trying to get 20k for it up until recently.

Reasons to go for the '96?
- A dream car for me when I was in my late teens.
- Better styling
- Better engine exhaust note - it's an LT1 after all.
- A little bit lighter than the later ls1 based ones
- I've had more contact with the owner and feel comfortable it was modified correctly
400whp on a mustang dyno

Reasons to go for the '01
- Ugh, LS1... All my car buddies already think I'm wrong for considering paying so much for an LT1 based car, let alone with this car out there for basically the same money (cheaper actually after expenses).
- 5 years newer with 35k less miles than the '96
- Easier to work on / easier to tune
- Most people like them better and find them more desirable
- 450whp on a dyno jet, but we all know an LS based motor has more potential because of the parts bin than an LT based motor
- It's within driving distance

I'll post up the specs (I have so far) for both cars in my next post... and look forward to your feedback.

[Yosho]

Oh, I forgot to add that this will also be a garage queen / weekend toy for me and my wife. It'll be mainly a street driven/trip car... A street cruiser. And while it may see a drag strip at some point, it's more likely to see AutoX, road course, or back road/mountain road driving. Both of these cars still have mods left I'd want to add, but realistically they're probably both done on the power front unless I went into a built/stroked bottom end. Not sure what's left to do on the '01, but for the '96, I'm still interested in upgrading the interior/stereo, adding projector based HIDs, a watts link rear suspension, upgraded axle, and wider tires/wheels if needed.

Here are the stats for the '01 first...

Full BMR suspension, tubular k member/control arms.
Twin disk clutch.
Trick Flow heads/cam, Roller rockers, Fast manifold intake Fast 92 mm throttle body Fast Fuel Rails.
Put down 450 rwhp - dyno sheet available. Was tuned on the dyno, I know who tuned it.
Full Exhaust American Racing Headers/high flow cats, Magna Flow cat back.
Interior 10 out of 10 Exterior 9 out of 10 Good tires/recent inspection. Everything on this car works - Recently replaced both window motors.

Here are the stats for the '96

The Engine stuff was done about 3700-3800 miles ago, the brakes and most of the suspension parts were done this summer and has around 500 miles on them. Some are a bit older. All parts are pretty much new. The cam makes good power by 3200 rpms and by 4000 rpms the car is pulling hard. The cam and vavletrain are setup to be good to 6400-6500 rpm's. Shift light is set for 5800 and usually shift by 6000rpm's to be safe. This car is very well taken care of and never beat on. Most of the miles are local around my town running arrands during the summer weekends. All modifications were done tastefully and with the intention to improve performance, comfort or styling.


1996 Ram Air WS6 TA -- LT1 -- 6 speed-Black with Charcoal Grey Leather Interior--Body and Interior in Excellent Condition
A/C, PW, PL, PS, cruise, remote mirrors, TTops with shade covers
17" x 9" WS6 wheels--excellent condition
Kuhmos MX's/rears Nittos 555R2's
Front tires - 245-40/17 Kumho Esta MX's
Rear tires - 245-40/17 Nitto 555R2's(sticky tire with a road racing side wall) Hooks great when hot!!
Tinted Windows
Viper Alarm with 2 way communications
Electrical accessories sub panel


Engine--
Block, crank and rods inspected and cleaned up--under 4k miles
New Rings and bearings--under 4k miles
Competition Cams Lloyd Elliott LE2 Custom Grind Roller Cams--232/242 duration, 610/610 lift, 110LSA--under 4k miles
Competition Cams Roller Lifters
GM 643 heads Lloyd Elliott LE2 heavily ported and machined by Lloyd Elliott of Eportworks, Texas--under 4k miles
Ferrea Valves--under 3k miles
Competition Cams - Bee Hive High lift Springs--under 4k miles
New seats, guides, 5 angle valve job--under 4k miles
Competition Cams Pro Magnum 1.6rr Roller Rockers--under 4k miles
Competition cams High Tech Hardened Push Rods with plates--under 4k miles
Canton TIG Welded aluminum custom valve covers--for roller rockers clearance and stock alternator location
NEW LT4 HD Timing chain set--under 4k miles
30 lb Accel Injectors--under 4k miles
ASM(Arizona Speed and Marine) Billet Aluminum 58mm Throttle Body--under 4k miles
GM LT1 Intake manifold--Lloyd Elliott LE2 heavly ported and powder coated red--58mm--under 4k miles
New GM Optispark Distributor--Under 4k miles
New GM Coil-under 4k miles
8mm Over the Top Spark Plug Wires with wire mgrs--Red
K+N Reusable/Rechargable Lifetime WS6 Airbox air filter
Hooker Long Tube Headers--Thermal ceramic coated--under 4k miles
The car is currently running with no cats-passed IL emisions as all troubles are "ready" thru PCM
Custom 3" Mandrel bent exhaust--under 4k miles
QTP 3" Electric exhaust cutout--under 4k miles
Flowmaster 3 chamber muffler--
Stainless Steel 14" straight exhaust tips--
New GM Carbon Charcoal Canister
New Alternator
New 180 Tstat
New Fuel Filter
New Goodyear Gatorback Belts and Hoses
New Autozone Red Battery
Royal Purple Synthetic Oil
Billet Oil Dipstick
Aluminum Engine brackets power coated black
Aluminum Timing cover powder coated silver


Engine tuned by FLP(Finish Line Performance-Naperville, IL)
450 flywheel hp / 397 rwhp


Ram Stage 3 HD clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing--under 4k miles
Pro 5.0 shifter
Royal Purple Trans Fluid




Chassis/Suspension/Brakes
All suspension and chassis parts are powdercoated--list below
Hotchkis 25mm front sway bar-black--under 3k miles
Hotchkis front strut tower brace-red--under 3k miles
BMR Lower A- Arm's with new Moog Ball Joints--Under 500 miles
BMR Progressive Rate lower springs(Sam Strano racing specs)--red--Under 500 miles
Koni SA Yellow-adjustable front and rear shocks--under 500 miles
New Moog shock lower and upper mounts--under 500 miles
New Moog upper ball joints--under 500 miles
New Moog outer tie rods--under 500 miles
New Moog front hubs and bearings assembly--Timkins--under 500 miles
Competition Engineering polyurethane sway bar end links--black--under 500k miles
SLP Drilled/dimpled and slotted front and rear rotors--under 500 miles
Hawk HPS front and rear race pads--under 500 miles
New Twin piston LS1 front rotors--powder coated red--under 500 miles
Earls Stainless brake lines front and rear--under 500 miles
Powder coated front spindles/knuckles--black--
under 500 miles
BMR adjustable Torque Arm with poly monts--red--under 3k miles
BMR Driveshaft loop--red--under 3k miles
BMR rear lower control Arms with poly mounts--black--under 3k miles
Hotchkis adjustable panhard bar--red--under 3k miles
SLP Double Diamond Sub Frame Connectors--black--Under 3k miles
Competition Engineering Transmission mount--under 3k miles
All suspension zerk greese fittings pumped full with Mobil 1 Synthetic Suspension lube
4:10-1 GM Motive Rear Gear Set--under 3k miles
Royal Purple gear Lube
3" Balanced aluminum driveshaft
New Moog HD U-Joints--under 100 miles


Interior--Interior is mint and appears stock. It has no permanent modifications.
Billet WS6 pedal set x 4
White face Guage kit
Auto Meter pillar pod mount
Auto Meter temperature guage--Phantom White
Auto Meter water guage--Phantom White
Settable concealed shift light--currently at 5800 rpm
Leather upgrade shift boot
Leather Hurst Shift Knob
Lloyd's custom logo floor mats
Sony stereo head unit
Sony 9 band EQ / crossover
Sony rear amps -2 --Custom mounts to accomidate factory T-Top storage area with no issues.
Cerwin Vega speakers
GM Performance Division Plate

[MrAngry]

Both are way overpriced. The LS1 less so, but still worth continuing to shop.

For $15k, you csn get a clean c5 Vette with around 75k miles.

The 96 is realistically maybe a 7500 car, the 01 9000- 11k tops.

Keep shopping.

Sent from my Tricorder aboard the Enterprise

[MrAngry]

Btw, if the 96 needed an engine rebuild at 75k, I'd be even more suspect. The original engine in my Formuls was getting raced regularly and sprayed with a 150 shot from 10k miles to 145k when it lost compression. Thats 135k miles of regular drag racing and nitrous.

Sent from my Tricorder aboard the Enterprise

[MeanTA]

Both are way way over priced. I would pay 7500 tops for the 96 and 10,000 for the 01.

You can get clean low mileage Hawks with LT1/LS1 for cheaper then that.

[Yosho]

Hmmm, i tried posting the specs for both cars, but it said it's awaiting moderator approval... (Edit - looks like it's posted now - thx admin!)

Glad to hear they're both "way way over priced"... who doesn't like to save money right? So hopefully that spec listing can be posted and then I can start getting some tippers on where their clones 'for less' are located. So far I haven't been able to find them, so seriously, don't be shy posting the links to where they're located when the specs are posted... my budget is 15k max for a weekend/sunny day play toy.

Just to be clear, I'm not considering an average, good, or very good condition car... These cars are all old cars now, and I'm looking for an excellent condition car that has been modified and maintained with care and thought. It has to be a t-top, m6 car, preferably in Black, but I would think about a Red one. I'm not looking for a half built project car, or something that needs a respray, or something that is stock, or something that was obviously beat on it's entire life. All of those are cool cars and good values, and i've worked on or owned plenty of those types, but they're not what I'm looking for.

I have looked at C5 Z06s (thanks for the suggestion), mint GTAs, TTAs, as well as other makes and models, but have ruled them out for various reasons.

[MeanTA]

Good examples can be found cheap in either platform. For example there easy a 99 ws6 in perfect shape with only a cat-back done to it. And guy was asking 8,500 o.b.o.

Look for a stock example. That way you know someone didnt do a hack job on the mods. And you can setup how you want it.

With a 15G budget you can get a good setup done.

[Chopstix]

value is in the eye of the owner....when looking for pristine examples of any vehicle you will pay a premium for them, as you know. Without being able to see specs and pictures its hard to know which is the better value. With that being said though, for approximately the same money, the LS1s actual value is probably closer to the asking price.

Ultimately it will come down to which car you like more.

[Fastbird]

Ultimately it will come down to which car you like more.

This. Both sound like nice cars. But the 96 sounds horribly overpriced too. You can get so much more car in the LTX generation for less money. But what it really boils down to is which you prefer and what you're comfortable paying.

Posted from my Rooted and ICS'd Rezound

[JCzNova]

I LOVED my 2000, and paid $17.5 (before the BS dealer fees) when I found what I wanted. That was back in 2007, so if I did the deal over now in 2013, I might pay $15k for it with the low mileage.

[MrAngry]

Hmmm, i tried posting the specs for both cars, but it said it's awaiting moderator approval...

Glad to hear they're both "way way over priced"... who doesn't like to save money right? So hopefully that spec listing can be posted and then I can start getting some tippers on where their clones 'for less' are located. So far I haven't been able to find them, so seriously, don't be shy posting the links to where they're located when the specs are posted... my budget is 15k max for a weekend/sunny day play toy.

Just to be clear, I'm not considering an average, good, or very good condition car... These cars are all old cars now, and I'm looking for an excellent condition car that has been modified and maintained with care and thought. It has to be a t-top, m6 car, preferably in Black, but I would think about a Red one. I'm not looking for a half built project car, or something that needs a respray, or something that is stock, or something that was obviously beat on it's entire life. All of those are cool cars and good values, and i've worked on or owned plenty of those types, but they're not what I'm looking for.

I have looked at C5 Z06s (thanks for the suggestion), mint GTAs, TTAs, as well as other makes and models, but have ruled them out for various reasons.

If it had to have an engine rebuild at 75k, it isn't the pristine machine you're looking for. Also, the majority of people don't add anything performance oriented to baby the car.

If you want the pristine garage diamond you seem to be looking for, you need to find one with very low miles, ALL documented, and bone stock. Anything else is going to be some level of someone's "half done project".

[Madman337]

I drove and almost bought a triple black TA back in 1999 and the car was a 1996 and the dealers asking price for a 40k super clean car then was 18k
Reason I didnt was the wife thought the payments were going to be too high for a car that was gonna be just for me.................... so glad I have a MUCH better woman now because Jeneen would hell said "Hell yes buy it!" because she would have wanted to drive it too.
Just my 2Cs worth but the price seems high for both.

[popo8]

You are only entertaining black or red, correct?

Cause this white automatic one looks like its near stock with 21k on it. Its an auction...but Im sure it will be in or close to the range you are looking to spend.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WS6-20K-miles-T-Tops-/390601616642?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item5af1abad02


Im not saying this is meeting any of your requirements... but its a virgin TA with LOW mileage... maybe wanna watch it to see what it goes for to give you an idea....


NOW, I will look for stuff close to your requirements.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Pontiac-Firebird-Trans-Am-WS6-6-SPD-T-Top-34k-miles-Original-Owner-/171045612664?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item27d31cec78

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/99-WS6-trans-am-/181147151028?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2a2d362ab4

[Yosho]

Wow, those are all really clean Larry, especially the white '96 considering it's age. Too bad it's an auto and cloth... and yeah, I'm pretty much only considering Black, m6, WS6, t-top, with leather, but am willing to look at Red ones. My old friend's '96 is White (66k miles), and while I love White WS6, I don't want the same car he has.

I guess because my second post got caught in the admin approval filter and delayed, everyone focused on the price points of these two cars thinking they were stock or near stock cars with normal wear and tear for their age. I really wanted the thread to be more focused on the differences between two nicely modded LT1 and LS1 WS6s. A sanity check if you will that it's not a mistake to buy an earlier 4th gen WS6 over a later one given that both are similar condition/mods and both make similar power. I have some style opinions and some personal history on why I gravitate to the earlier WS6s, but with the exception of my friend with the '96, all my car friends are writing off the LT1 as too old and too hard to work on, ect, ect... and that I should go with the LS1.

I won't say the '96 listed on the first page is perfect. There are some things I would have done differently, but it's pretty close to how I would have created it... and the little things I can change if they bother me. I would have preferred a stock monsoon stereo for example (or one upgraded based off it), but that's fixable... the door panels and steering wheel controls are what I'm missing the most for that option. There were only 4876 of these built in their 2 year run, and of those... only so many in Black, m6, with t-tops, and leather (don't have the numbers in front of me). At least that was the most common color/configuration, so they're not impossible to find... just takes a bit.

Now that the specs are posted on the first page, hopefully you guys can see what I'm considering. I still think the price is a bit high for the '96 and better for the '01, in any event, who doesn't deal when talking price? It doesn't need to be super low mileage (hence the '75k one), but we all know low milage can help keep a car nice. If it's been garaged and maintained/upgraded, I'm fine with that. The end result condition is all I really care about, not milage. What would you value each at now that the specs are posted? Appearance wise, they're both basically stock and near perfect, so I won't bother posting pics unless I can work a deal on one of these. I'm in no hurry though, so if they're not right or I can't work a deal, I'll keep looking (I'd rather sell my other two cars first anyway).

[Yosho]

I drove and almost bought a triple black TA back in 1999 and the car was a 1996 and the dealers asking price for a 40k super clean car then was 18k
Reason I didnt was the wife thought the payments were going to be too high for a car that was gonna be just for me.................... so glad I have a MUCH better woman now because Jeneen would hell said "Hell yes buy it!" because she would have wanted to drive it too.
Just my 2Cs worth but the price seems high for both.

Yeah, my friend with the White '96 bought it around '99, with about those miles, and paid around that price. Took him about 6 months to find it. All my talk of getting one had him pull it out of storage, give it a bath, and go for a drive with his wife yesterday lol. Having the right wife is priceless isn't it?

[Yosho]

Well, unfortunately I was too late in my offer on the '96 and the owner sold it this weekend. I made an opening offer of 12,000 and he had already sold it for 13,600. He said he had received several offers at 12-12,500. So the market value was right about what I figured it would be. Looks like I'm back to searching... I found the '96 literally on my first day, and the timing wasn't very good, so I couldn't move as fast as I would have liked. I'll be better prepared for the next one, I just hope it doesn't take me too many months/seasons of searching to find it's clone.

i'm still considering a newer LS1 based WS6 or Hawk, but I have a soft spot for the older LT1 based bird.

[popo8]

Everything happens for a reason man. It just was not the right one for u.... I still feel price couldve been better...

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

[MeanTA]

Everything happens for a reason man. It just was not the right one for u.... I still feel price couldve been better...

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

I agree the right one will find you. And keep looking. I found my 95 TA back in 02 for 8,500. And it was in perfect low mileage condition. I know it was not a WS6. But goes to show there out there. I had go 700 miles to pick it up. But was worth it.

[Yosho]

Thanks guys, yeah this one just wasn't meant to be apparently. The right one's out there, I just have to find it. The trick is going to not settle for less than what I really want or get distracted by other models (must stop looking at the vette section and ads). :whistle: