View Full Version : Anybody knows what this noise could be???
Ok so here's the story, I have this noise when the engine is warn after driving the car for a while, it has had this noise since I have the car (More than 2 years already). Some facts:
Car doesn't burn any oil
Engine has a small oil leak coming from somewhere on the passenger side near the starter but haven't been able to see exactly where it is coming from...
There's no noise when the car is cold
Noise starts when car is idling and engine is warm
Noise gets louder when the car is in gear and idling but gets quieter if shifted back to neutral and totally goes away even when in gear if I slightly increase the RPMs
Car runs strong, no misfires, no stumbles, no stalling
Car has good oil pressure (60 psi on cold starts, 40 psi as the car reaches operating temperatures, 22 psi when the car is warm and idling and about 40 to 50 psi when driving)
Oil level is fine and I'm using Penzoil 20w50 with a little bit of Lucas Oil Stabilizer
I would like to fix this since the noise is annoying but I don't have a clue what it is. Last time I had a similar issue it was with my Sunfire and it was a badly installed timing chain tensor but with my Formula the noise seems to come near the oil pan...
Appreciate any advice guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76MG7P844aI
firebird_1995
02-16-2013, 03:44 PM
How many miles on the engine? Not sure about no noise when cold but if its coming from down low, could be a bearing.
Sahara54
02-16-2013, 04:15 PM
If it goes away when revved it might be a collapsed lifter? Also, pull the belt and see if the noise continues. Just to narrow the noise to the engine or trans. A friend ad a 92 RS with a 700r4 with a cracked flywheel that made a tick off and on but i doubt that's anywhere near the cause.
Twenty8Z
02-16-2013, 04:47 PM
Any reason you use 20w50 with stabilizer? Stock engines call for 5w30.
RamAir95TA
02-16-2013, 10:22 PM
That noise is too slow to be valvetrain related. It's most likely something in the bottom end - perhaps a bearing ready to let go.
Hey guys, the car has 120k miles.. I'm using 20w50 as it is a high mileage car now and also because I live in Costa Rica and it is pretty damn hot here :)
Also I have an update, the oil leak comes from the rear of the intake manifold where it sits on the engine.. I will have to take it off and use a better RTV to seal it..
About the bearings.. I will take the pan off some time soon to install a high flow oil pump and replace the pan gasket too so I would be able to change the bearings while I'm down there
popo8
02-17-2013, 03:31 AM
Sounds like one of the accessories to me.... squeaky pulley or belt?
RamAir95TA
02-17-2013, 11:38 AM
Hey guys, the car has 120k miles.. I'm using 20w50 as it is a high mileage car now and also because I live in Costa Rica and it is pretty damn hot here :)
Also I have an update, the oil leak comes from the rear of the intake manifold where it sits on the engine.. I will have to take it off and use a better RTV to seal it..
About the bearings.. I will take the pan off some time soon to install a high flow oil pump and replace the pan gasket too so I would be able to change the bearings while I'm down there
Changing the oil pump will not help one bit, especially if your oil pressure is good. And you can't simply change the bearings with the motor in the car - you're looking at an engine pull and full rebuild.
Popo makes a good point though. Remove the belt and see if the noise goes away. You can run the engine without the belt for a few minutes. Try that once the engine is warmed up and the noise starts.
SS RRR
02-17-2013, 01:30 PM
That really does not sound good at all. A rod knock can behave similar to what you're describing- knock until engine is revved. And just because you live in a hot climate doesn't mean you need to run that heavy of oil. The thickest for stock bearing clearances is maybe 10w-40.
popo8
02-17-2013, 01:32 PM
...
Popo makes a good point though. Remove the belt and see if the noise goes away. You can run the engine without the belt for a few minutes. Try that once the engine is warmed up and the noise starts.
If its hurt its hurt...or hurting, and although you may not want to know... just give THIS^ a shot. It cant do any more damage. And who knows... you may be pleasantly suprised.
Changing the oil pump will not help one bit, especially if your oil pressure is good. And you can't simply change the bearings with the motor in the car - you're looking at an engine pull and full rebuild.
Popo makes a good point though. Remove the belt and see if the noise goes away. You can run the engine without the belt for a few minutes. Try that once the engine is warmed up and the noise starts.
Well I think a high volume oil pump as an upgrade not as a fix for this noise. However I still would like to understand why it doesn't make any noise when it is cold? The main difference I can think of is the oil pressure when cold vs oil pressure when hot the oil viscosity at different temps.
Regarding not being able to change the bearings with the engine on the car, I've seen "partial" rebuilds done with the engine on the car including piston and rings replacement, bearing replacement and cylinder honing but not in an LT1 so if you're right saying it can't be done and it ends up being a bearing it sucks :)
Sounds like one of the accessories to me.... squeaky pulley or belt?
Well the belt is new, I do know one of the pulley's needs replacement because I accidentally bent it a little bit. I will do the test and run the car for a few mins without the belt to discard that. thanks man
popo8
02-17-2013, 10:02 PM
Well the belt is new, I do know one of the pulley's needs replacement because I accidentally bent it a little bit. I will do the test and run the car for a few mins without the belt to discard that. thanks man
Get it up to temp and making the noise first then turn it off...pull the belt and run it...remember ur not gonna be circulating coolant so keep ur eye on the temp.
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
That really does not sound good at all. A rod knock can behave similar to what you're describing- knock until engine is revved. And just because you live in a hot climate doesn't mean you need to run that heavy of oil. The thickest for stock bearing clearances is maybe 10w-40.
Well it doesn't sound good I know and scares the crap out of me just to think about having to rebuild now but I gotta say this doesn't sound like a knock at all to me and I've gotten the opinion from a couple of mechanics and they don't think this is an issue that I should be really concerned about.
As I said before the car has this noise since I got it, and that's a while back, more than 2 years already and if I exclude this noise I would say this engine runs perfectly so I feel better when I think of that :)
As for the revs, all I need is to increase the RPM like 100 rpm more and the noise goes away.
firebird_1995
02-17-2013, 10:19 PM
Get it up to temp and making the noise first then turn it off...pull the belt and run it...remember ur not gonna be circulating coolant so keep ur eye on the temp.
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
Gear driven water pump. You know that.
popo8
02-17-2013, 10:36 PM
Gear driven water pump. You know that.
Honestly, I could not remember for the life of me.... I run an ewp... and was totally drawing a blank if the wp had a pulley on it.
Thank you sir...
Sorry OP for the bad info.
firebird_1995
02-17-2013, 10:38 PM
LOL you so crazy
Get it up to temp and making the noise first then turn it off...pull the belt and run it...remember ur not gonna be circulating coolant so keep ur eye on the temp.
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
Thanks man, will do
RamAir95TA
02-17-2013, 11:38 PM
High volume pumps are NOT an upgrade and in MOST cases are a step backwards. Due to the taller impeller gears they move more oil sure, but at the added cost of stressing the oil pump drive gear which is notorious for stripping. It also takes more horsepower to turn the pump.
They have been known to suck the stock oil pan dry during hard cornering at high RPMs.
There literally is NO benefit.
And the purpose of removing the belt is to isolate the engine-driven components. That way you know it isn't the alternator, a/c compressor, power steering pump, or tensioner.
High volume pumps are NOT an upgrade and in MOST cases are a step backwards. Due to the taller impeller gears they move more oil sure, but at the added cost of stressing the oil pump drive gear which is notorious for stripping. It also takes more horsepower to turn the pump.
They have been known to suck the stock oil pan dry during hard cornering at high RPMs.
There literally is NO benefit.
And the purpose of removing the belt is to isolate the engine-driven components. That way you know it isn't the alternator, a/c compressor, power steering pump, or tensioner.
Ok, thanks for the advice on the oil pump and yes I'm clear on why to remove the belt, I'll keep you posted
lt1-xjs
02-18-2013, 02:15 AM
Sounds like one of the accessories to me.... squeaky pulley or belt?
I agree, I chased that same noise for a year. It ended up being the belt. Let it warm up to reveal the noise and then remove the belt to see if it stops.
popo8
02-18-2013, 08:50 AM
I agree, I chased that same noise for a year. It ended up being the belt. Let it warm up to reveal the noise and then remove the belt to see if it stops.
Hey man!!!! Where have u been?
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
I agree, I chased that same noise for a year. It ended up being the belt. Let it warm up to reveal the noise and then remove the belt to see if it stops.
You give me hope man :) I'll let you know what I find. Haven't been able to do the test yet
By the way, I stepped by the muffler shop today and checked under the car and it couldn't be quieter but it haven't warmed up enough by them... This issue is weird but I'll get to the bottom of this one way or the other :cool:
So I did my homework and ran the engine without the belt, noise is still there..
I also raised the car and used a long screwdriver to try to pinpoint the noise and I gotta say it's not coming from the oil pan as I thought, I'm not sure exactly where it is coming from, I hear it in the back of the engine close to the torque converter, I know it is not the tranny because I replaced the tranny some time ago and it had the same noise with the prev tranny but the converter is the same and I'm suspecting the issue could be there...
Madman337
02-20-2013, 02:02 AM
High volume pumps are NOT an upgrade and in MOST cases are a step backwards. Due to the taller impeller gears they move more oil sure, but at the added cost of stressing the oil pump drive gear which is notorious for stripping. It also takes more horsepower to turn the pump.
They have been known to suck the stock oil pan dry during hard cornering at high RPMs.
There literally is NO benefit.
And the purpose of removing the belt is to isolate the engine-driven components. That way you know it isn't the alternator, a/c compressor, power steering pump, or tensioner.
Couldnt agree more because I have seen this happen myself with it sucking the pan dry, I always ran stock volume and 10 psi for every 1000 rpm so if I was going to turn it 7000 then it had a 70 psi spring in it. I have a weird noise in mine that comes and goes but I know it to be the cat in my case is coming apart so I hope you find your noise and good luck.
Guess what! Noise is gone... This is the 2nd time since I have the car that the noise goes away.. First time I was using 10w40 oil and I went for an oil change and put 20w50 in it and the noise went away for a considerably long time.. Back then I thought the issue was solved by going with a higher viscosity and of course I was wrong because later, after several oil changes, the noise came back even when using 20w50... The noise went away some days ago and all I did was fill it up to the top and probably just a little bit more.. So I'm thinking that this noise is a lubrication problem
As I said before, I couldn't really tell where the noise was coming from, I hear it in the back of the engine close to the torque converter but I can't hear it clearly at the valve covers nor at the oil pan so it should be somewhere in the middle of the engine and that turns my attention to the lifters.. Any thoughts?
popo8
02-23-2013, 12:46 AM
What do u mean "fill it up to the top"
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
What do u mean "fill it up to the top"
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
It was missing a little bit, not much actually so I just filled it up to get it to full. When I check the oil with the engine warm the dipstick marks very close to the top hole now. The level should be going down slowly cause I have a leak in the back of the intake manifold that I will be fixing soon.. I'm wondering if they're not adding the right amount of oil during oil changes (I don't do the changes myself) but even if it was missing half a quarter I wouldn't expect the engine to start making noises
I just checked the repair manual and it says the 94-97 LT1 takes 5 quarters of oil while curiously the 93 takes 4.5 quarters.. I'm pretty sure they're adding 4.5 based on some manual they have and my car is a 96.. don't know if this would cause such an issue though
popo8
02-23-2013, 01:14 AM
I really dont think that half a quart would be the difference, however if it works for you.. it works.
I really dont think that half a quart would be the difference, however if it works for you.. it works.
Agree :) I will make sure they add the 5 quarters next time and I hope the noise will stay away
popo8
02-23-2013, 01:29 AM
Keep us posted.
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
Keep us posted.
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
Will do man
RamAir95TA
02-23-2013, 12:01 PM
Having driven my car for years intentionally with one quart low I can tell you the oil level will have nothing to do with the noise. If it does it's coincidence.
Given your description I am convinced there is something internal wrong with the engine, be it a cam or rod bearing (you would hear them "higher up" in the motor). The fact that you added thicker oil and the noise went away confirms this. I think you're on borrowed time.
Well if that's the case i've been in borrowed time for almost 3 years now :)
popo8
02-24-2013, 12:23 PM
We.... Fingers crossed u have more time in it.
Still quiet?
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
We.... Fingers crossed u have more time in it.
Still quiet?
Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com
You bet, both hands and feet fingers crossed man haha.. Yeah, still quiet, last night I shot a video to show you but I left the cell phone usb cable at work so I'll upload it tomorrow
Here's the video now that the noise is gone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2UIC9iJcRs
Ok, shit the noise is back :( and it is now more consistent meaning that I hear it all the time with no exception. I raised the car, started it up and I was trying to find exactly where it is coming, I'm 90% confident this noise is coming from somewhere in the transmission bell housing, either the flexplate or torque converter, I lean to think it is in the torque converter as I hear it clearer on the converter to tranny side, I don't hear anything from the engine oil pan when listening with a hose or screw driver, call me crazy but I think that the times the noise went away was just a coincidence and not because of the oil fill up. I think I will just bring the tranny down, examine the flex plate, start the engine and if the noise goes away I will seriously suspect on the converter. I'm sure the tranny itself is not the issue as this is the 2nd tranny I've had and I've heard this noise with either tranny and I've been using the same converter on both.. Engine is running smooth and strong as always, it is just this annoying noise
popo8
07-03-2013, 12:26 AM
Ok, shit the noise is back :( and it is now more consistent meaning that I hear it all the time with no exception. I raised the car, started it up and I was trying to find exactly where it is coming, I'm 90% confident this noise is coming from somewhere in the transmission bell housing, either the flexplate or torque converter, I lean to think it is in the torque converter as I hear it clearer on the converter to tranny side, I don't hear anything from the engine oil pan when listening with a hose or screw driver, call me crazy but I think that the times the noise went away was just a coincidence and not because of the oil fill up. I think I will just bring the tranny down, examine the flex plate, start the engine and if the noise goes away I will seriously suspect on the converter. I'm sure the tranny itself is not the issue as this is the 2nd tranny I've had and I've heard this noise with either tranny and I've been using the same converter on both.. Engine is running smooth and strong as always, it is just this annoying noise
Have u taken it by any garages where u are for someone else to listen to it.
Its so difficult to assess long distance, yet id hate to see ubjust pulling stuff apart.
Honestly... If u have good oil pressure amd it runs good.... Leave it be.
Btw...didnt u also have an intake gasket leak?
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Have u taken it by any garages where u are for someone else to listen to it.
Its so difficult to assess long distance, yet id hate to see ubjust pulling stuff apart.
Honestly... If u have good oil pressure amd it runs good.... Leave it be.
Btw...didnt u also have an intake gasket leak?
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Runs perfect and has strong oil pressure, everything seems to be normal, but the noise scares the crap out of me, I was also going to have a mechanic take the oil pan off and look at the rod bearings but after I raised the car today to hear, I don't think it is coming from there. I had an intake oil leak but I fixed that one. Taking the trany off would be a pain in the ass for sure, I could maybe take it as an excuse to get a stall LOL but I would run the risk of not getting rid of the noise even though I'm seriously suspecting on it. I will follow your advice, I will take it to a transmission shop and have them raise it and hear what they say
popo8
07-03-2013, 12:41 AM
Runs perfect and has strong oil pressure, everything seems to be normal, but the noise scares the crap out of me, I was also going to have a mechanic take the oil pan off and look at the rod bearings but after I raised the car today to hear, I don't think it is coming from there. I had an intake oil leak but I fixed that one. Taking the trany off would be a pain in the ass for sure, I could maybe take it as an excuse to get a stall LOL but I would run the risk of not getting rid of the noise even though I'm seriously suspecting on it. I will follow your advice, I will take it to a transmission shop and have them raise it and hear what they say
Im not talking u out of doing ur own work... Im just concermed that u will bust ur ass pulling it...and have the same noise...
Just thought another set of ears...knowledgable ears may benifit.. SOMETIMES u cant put a price on experienced help.
And although this is not what un wanna hear... But if the bearings are going...the motor is coming apart to be done right (evemtually)
If u suspect bearings...do an oil change and use a light and clean rag to inspect it for metallic glitter.
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Im not talking u out of doing ur own work... Im just concermed that u will bust ur ass pulling it...and have the same noise...
Just thought another set of ears...knowledgable ears may benifit.. SOMETIMES u cant put a price on experienced help.
And although this is not what un wanna hear... But if the bearings are going...the motor is coming apart to be done right (evemtually)
If u suspect bearings...do an oil change and use a light and clean rag to inspect it for metallic glitter.
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
No, actually I'm not suspecting bearings anymore as I don't hear the noise from the oil pan but I'm now at the point in which I really want to know what the issue is whatever it is and stop guessing.. and if it will end up in engine rebuild (Which true be told, is not what I want at this moment) that's what I'm going for, but hell I want to get rid of the noise and avoid any possible damage to the car
popo8
07-03-2013, 12:52 AM
No, actually I'm not suspecting bearings anymore as I don't hear the noise from the oil pan but I'm now at the point in which I really want to know what the issue is whatever it is and stop guessing.. and if it will end up in engine rebuild (Which true be told, is not what I want at this moment) that's what I'm going for, but hell I want to get rid of the noise and avoid any possible damage to the car
Ok... Well if ir confident it soumds like trans...i say have a pro listen to it and either support ur theory...or not.
Wish there was a way for us to hear it. vids suck.
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Ok... Well if ir confident it soumds like trans...i say have a pro listen to it and either support ur theory...or not.
Wish there was a way for us to hear it. vids suck.
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Well not the trans but the converter, yeah, I will take it to a shop and see what they say and I'm still willing to take the pan off and look at the bearings if necessary, whatever it takes, I'm sick of this noise..
popo8
07-03-2013, 01:03 AM
Well not the trans but the converter, yeah, I will take it to a shop and see what they say and I'm still willing to take the pan off and look at the bearings if necessary, whatever it takes, I'm sick of this noise..
I understand ur frustration....
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Today I had 2 different mechanics that I trust listen the noise from underneath the car, both agree with me that the noise is coming from the torque converter and not the engine. I'll look for another opinion and will be looking for a stall, I was planning on doing that upgrade anyway..
popo8
07-06-2013, 02:19 AM
Today I had 2 different mechanics that I trust listen the noise from underneath the car, both agree with me that the noise is coming from the torque converter and not the engine. I'll look for another opinion and will be looking for a stall, I was planning on doing that upgrade anyway..
I hope thats it man.
Keep us updated.
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
OK so I did the homework! I had 2 different mechanics listen the noise and also took it to the tranny shop and everybody agrees that the noise is coming from the torque converter. I also did the oil change and checked the old oil for metal and it is perfectly fine. The car is running with absolutely no issues apart from the noise which interestingly has turned quieter (Before the oil change). I will go ahead and change the converter, I'm interested in the 2400 rpm stall RevMax converter, any opinions on that one?
popo8
07-07-2013, 11:36 PM
OK so I did the homework! I had 2 different mechanics listen the noise and also took it to the tranny shop and everybody agrees that the noise is coming from the torque converter. I also did the oil change and checked the old oil for metal and it is perfectly fine. The car is running with absolutely no issues apart from the noise which interestingly has turned quieter (Before the oil change). I will go ahead and change the converter, I'm interested in the 2400 rpm stall RevMax converter, any opinions on that one?
U should prob start a fresh thread asking for tc assistance since people may not be following this
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
U should prob start a fresh thread asking for tc assistance since people may not be following this
Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com
Too late man, I talked to some people, read some old threads here and in other forums and got to the conclusion that's the one I want so I bought it earlier in the afternoon. It is the RevMax Stage 2 2200-2600 rpm stall converter. I saw most people recommend going above 3k but I don't want to put too much stress on my stock tranny nor I want to sacrifice normal drive-ability
Hey guys so as you may recall, I consulted a couple mechanics and also took the car to a tranny shop and everybody agrees the noise comes from the torque converter, I have to say I still have my doubts and I don't feel 100% confident this will solve my issue but... anyhow I got a 2800 stall from RevMax as I've had in mind for a long time to get a converter with a higher stall (not very high though)..
So now I just go a new floor jack to make my life easier and it is time to wrench so I started taking the transmission down today but first I shot a video from underneath the car, you can notice the noise is permanent now and seems to be louder and faster than before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRvx_riIeg
My plan is to get the transmission down, examine the converter and the flexplate for any evidence of external damage (Which I doubt) and then start the engine with the transmission removed, if the noise is still there, I'm moving forward to find and fix the issue, even if it takes getting the engine out of the car and have it rebuilt.. If the noise goes away, I will install the new stall and get the transmission back on. I'm simply not going to drive the car anymore until this problem is solved.
As for tonight I basically raised the car, removed the Y pipe, removed the O2s, removed the drive shaft and drained the transmission. Probably on Wednesday I will complete the removal of the transmission and have a new video to show how it sounds without the transmission
popo8
08-20-2013, 04:39 AM
Keep us posted...
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
95grnformula
08-20-2013, 08:18 AM
there is no need to remove the transmission to check it. just pull the cover off and remove the three torque converter bolts from the converter and push the converter back into the trans and start the car if the noise is still there its in the motor if it goes away its in the trans. personally the noise in the video sounds like a spun bearing in the motor. Hard to tell on noises through videos but if it sounds like a belt squeak and ligh tap when it gets hot but not the belt, just not as peppy as it is before the noise, maybee even sounds like it cranks slower after its hot then its deff. internal bearing failure. it sounds like its just starting out but if you were to go romp on it a few times up and down the street when it starts squeaking you will probly jam up the motor
SS RRR
08-20-2013, 08:41 AM
So now I just go a new floor jack to make my life easier...
You are using jackstands too? Hopefully?
You are using jackstands too? Hopefully?
Of course man, huge ones actually
there is no need to remove the transmission to check it. just pull the cover off and remove the three torque converter bolts from the converter and push the converter back into the trans and start the car if the noise is still there its in the motor if it goes away its in the trans. personally the noise in the video sounds like a spun bearing in the motor. Hard to tell on noises through videos but if it sounds like a belt squeak and ligh tap when it gets hot but not the belt, just not as peppy as it is before the noise, maybee even sounds like it cranks slower after its hot then its deff. internal bearing failure. it sounds like its just starting out but if you were to go romp on it a few times up and down the street when it starts squeaking you will probly jam up the motor
I will take the transmission anyhow as I want to check the flexplate and I will put a new converter in. I certainly don't want it to be a bearing but we'll see once I start without the transmission. I will keep you guys posted.
Ok another update: I worked more today on the car, unbolted the converter from the flexplate, removed the torque arm and also put the Y pipe back on to start the car with the TC unbolted and I still hear the noise but much much quieter. It sucks to know the issue is not in the converter and now I'm looking into either the flexplate or the engine but anyway I will keep seeking for this noise until I'm sure what it is.. Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlc_7J6u6PA
Next step is to take the transmission down completely, all is left is to disconnect the fluid lines and unbolt the bellhousing from the engine.. Once done with that, I will be able to carefully inspect the flexplate and start the engine with the transmission off the car. I've been reading a lot about flexplates with small cracks that cause sounds like spun rod bearings, I need to discard this possibility. Also as I'm going this far, it wouldn't hurt to get a better flexplate.
If I don't find issues with the flexplate I'll be looking into dropping the oil pan to look at the bearings...
Sahara54
08-22-2013, 03:31 AM
My friends old 91 Camaro had what we thought was a rod knock until we dropped the trans during the engine swap and found the cracked flex plate.
My friends old 91 Camaro had what we thought was a rod knock until we dropped the trans during the engine swap and found the cracked flex plate.
I really hope this is my issue... If it is and I get saved from having to do a rebuild I may get some new wheels for it :) But I'd better don't get very excited...
Ugod02010
08-23-2013, 05:26 AM
Mine is making a very similar noise mine sounds a little more like a chirping than urs does tho. And seems to act up worse when cold or wet. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Keep us posted!!
Today I got the transmission down. I have to say the flexplate looks in good shape, I didn't notice cracks (At least not in the side that faces the converter). I also started the car and didn't hear anything but it was not a valid test because the car was with open headers.... So... tomorrow I need to put the Y pipe back on again and start it and will be posting another video. I will also take the flexplate off and check the other side. BTW these cars are a pain in the ass to work on.. I'm sometimes in some sort of hate-love relationship with it, for example I had to fight with 1 of the drivers's side belhousing bolts for a while until I could get it off, there was simply no room to reach it..
Today I put the Y pipe back on, I couldn't hear the noise on the first couple of minutes but it wasn't long until it was there again.. I'm somehow confused when I listen to the first videos and now to the latest ones with the transmission down, I'm not sure if there are (or were) 2 different noises... Maybe they're both the same but it is just more noticeable with the transmission on the car as it puts load on the engine..
I also did a test of unplugging each of the spark plug wires as it is supposed that if the problem is a rod bearing, the noise should go away when unplugging the spark plug on the cylinder that has the problem but my noise never went away.. And sometime ago I also checked the oil for metal debris but it was perfectly fine.
I would appreciate any advice on what I could check next? Maybe drop the pan to check the bearings? Remove the intake manifold and check on the lifters? Start the car with the valve covers off? I just want to be sure on what the issue is and not guess anymore.
Here are a couple of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftu20gfRghk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHs9YlF2V7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljl8FhWZxLc
popo8
08-25-2013, 04:26 PM
If u have a noisy rod bearing... Unplugging spark plugs will not stop the bearing from making noise.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
jaysz2893
08-25-2013, 04:57 PM
thats a bearing.. rod is my guess
If u have a noisy rod bearing... Unplugging spark plugs will not stop the bearing from making noise.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong but I've found while searching for ways to diagnose (not guess) my problem, that unplugging spark plugs is a way that some people are using to diagnose a rod knock cause it seems to make the noise quieter or even the noise may disappear so I just saw it and gave it a try.. For example on this video the knock is quite evident and you can see a total difference when he unplugs spark plug wire for cylinder number 1. Needless to say that this sounds much worse than my noise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIOdS7XbHys
95grnformula
08-25-2013, 09:25 PM
Spark plug test is not a 100% thing I stll say a spun bearing not quite knocking yet if u keep driving it it will eventually start knocking hard.
<br>
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=spun bearing squeak&oq=spun bearing squeak&gs_l=youtube-reduced.3...1174.9015.0.9531.19.14.0.5.5.0.147.125 7.11j3.14.0....0...1ac.1.23.youtube-reduced..5.14.950.Fsy3eu0xIfY
popo8
08-25-2013, 09:26 PM
A bearing is doing its job during engine component movement...not whether that cyl is firing or not. SO with that being said...the bearing does notncare if ur havin ignition in that hole...the parts are still.moving.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
popo8
08-25-2013, 09:31 PM
Believe me...im hoping for u that its not something catastrophic.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
Featherburner
08-25-2013, 09:40 PM
A bearing is doing its job during engine component movement...not whether that cyl is firing or not. SO with that being said...the bearing does notncare if ur havin ignition in that hole...the parts are still.moving.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.comDisconnecting a spark plug wire will absolutely quiet down a rod knock on that cylinder.
jaysz2893
08-25-2013, 09:40 PM
well larry, if it is a bad rod bearing the explosion of the combustion will exert more downward pressure on the pistion, therefore the rod will see more pressure and if the bearing is really whacked the noise could be louder buy the movement of the rod being forced against the crank journal .. I am just speaking from a purely engineering sense. I think the rod bearing would have to be pretty much gone to have enough clearance (or slop) to smack around harder under normal combustion vs. with the plug off and no spark. I would advise running too long with no spark and fuel being injected into a cyl that has issues.. wash down or detonation are both very bad..
popo8
08-25-2013, 09:56 PM
Disconnecting a spark plug wire will absolutely quiet down a rod knock on that cylinder.
Quiet down...yes...MAYBE.
END the noise...highly unlikely...
Definitely not an "absolute."
Just an LTXtech addict
Believe me...im hoping for u that its not something catastrophic.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
I know man, I'm not trying to blind my self and I know a rod knock is a strong possibility here but I also think that I cannot just go and rebuild the car assuming that's the issue, I want to be sure on what the problem is before I start spending more money and as for the spark plug wire test, I'm far from being a professional but I think it makes sense that if there's no combustion, the pressure on the piston and rod should be much lower so that would explain why the noise quiets down. In my case, there was no difference.. For now I'll get an engine stethoscope to try to pin point where is the noise coming from inside the engine and if I'm able to, I will start looking on that direction. As for now, with a screw driver or a hose, the oil pan is totally quiet
popo8
08-25-2013, 10:20 PM
Have u cut ur filter apart and checked for signs of bearing failure. Its a long shot...but....
Just an LTXtech addict
Have u cut ur filter apart and checked for signs of bearing failure. Its a long shot...but....
Just an LTXtech addict
Well didn't cut the filter but did check every drop of oil on the last change I did and there was nothing in there. I don't have oil pressure issues either. Wish i would have thought about cutting the filter back then but I'm pretty sure I at least looked inside of it and didn't see anything
Today I got my stethoscope, I gotta say it's awesome!! Should've bought this thing long time ago! best 20 bucks spent ever! It's great cancelling environment noise so lets you hear clearly from where you're pointing it to. If you're interested it is the Lisle 52750 and you can get it from Amazon.
I first checked on the oil pan and I couldn't hear a thing there so I continued tracing the noise from the top on the passenger side in the space between the valve cover and the intake manifold trying to get a feeling if the lifters were somehow related to the issue.. I was able to barely hear it when listening close to cyl #6 but I was not sure enough that was the source so I kept going. Then I went to the driver's side and did the same thing, everything was ok until I got to cyl#5, damn I could hear it pretty clear there! So I took the valve covers off and started the car and tried listening several locations and didn't hear it clear until I pointed to the intake valve rocker arm stud, the noise is evidently associated to the intake valve on cyl #5, it is very loud! I tried listening on the stud of the exhaust valve and it can be heard there but definitely not nearly as loud as in the intake valve stud.. I'm seriously leaning into a dropped intake valve seat right here, I'm taking the driver's side head off now!
I also unplugged the injector of cyl#5 and looked for a difference on the noise when listening with the stethoscope and there was not a bit of a difference.. This is the equivalent to the test I did by unplugging the spark plug wire to rule out the bearings.
By the way, I just found this video of a Durango 4.7 with a very similar noise, the guy says he took the engine off and found the a dropped valve seat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzHVRYh7Mc8
popo8
09-01-2013, 02:22 AM
Keep us posted man...
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
An update on this: I took the head off and found nothing... The valve seats were ok.. Anyway, I sent it to the machine shop and now it is back on the engine, I also bought the 2 lifters for cyl #5 as I knew the noise was coming from there and today I took them off (Should've done this before taking the head off...) and found this:
http://imageshack.us/a/img845/5975/07vz.jpg
The one on the left is the one from the exhaust valve, the one on the right is from the intake valve which is evidently in worse shape and that explains why the noise was so more noticeable on the intake valve rocker arm stud.
Now in this picture I show a good lifter next to the damaged ones:
http://imageshack.us/a/img46/2668/cgfo.jpg
And finally a picture of the head back on the engine looking good :)
http://imageshack.us/a/img198/1306/20wo.JPG
I feel very good :) Putting the engine together this week and getting the tranny back on to give a try to the new stall!!!
Sahara54
09-22-2013, 07:39 PM
Did you pull the cam to check the lobe? Usually, it damages the cam too.
94Blackbird
09-22-2013, 07:53 PM
Did you pull the cam to check the lobe? Usually, it damages the cam too.
This. If you tore up a lifter, you need to check the lobe on the cam as well to ensure that it didn't get damaged as well.
Hey guys, no.. I don't want to go that far for now, I just used my finger to touch the lobe and it seems to be ok even though I know the only way to be sure is to pull the cam.. I will put it all back together for now with new lifters for cyl #5 and I'll plan on a new cam for sometime soon but don't want to mess with that at this moment
firebird_1995
09-22-2013, 08:44 PM
Yikes. Unfortunately I think you'll be replacing that cam sooner than you want to. If that hardened roller is chewed up like that, the cam is surely damaged.
Yikes. Unfortunately I think you'll be replacing that cam sooner than you want to. If that hardened roller is chewed up like that, the cam is surely damaged.
Yeah I know you're right man but I have to take my time to do a lot of searching to know which cam would be the best for me, study the whole procedure to swap it, etc. So I want to cleanup the mess I have first like putting the tranny back on the car and hopefully drive it for a while before I jump into it
firebird_1995
09-22-2013, 08:55 PM
The only downside to this is, if you send a bunch of metal through the engine you risk damaging other components.
94Blackbird
09-22-2013, 08:58 PM
An extra day isn't going to kill you to check the camshaft and make sure it isn't getting ready to grenade on you and force you into an engine rebuild anyways. Unless russian roulette is a game you really enjoy...
Damn I think I will have to check it.. Could it be possible to check it by removing the lifter, touching the lobe and rotating the engine? I would rather avoid to get it out but if it's the only option I'll have to do it and if I have to do it, new cam is going in definetely...
firebird_1995
09-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Sight would be better than touch. If you have the lifter out and can get enough light down the lifter bore to see the cam lobes with your head in there, that will probably work. #5 is pretty much under the cowl so its gonna be a tight fit. Check it, rotate the engine, repeat. Good luck.
Sight would be better than touch. If you have the lifter out and can get enough light down the lifter bore to see the cam lobes with your head in there, that will probably work. #5 is pretty much under the cowl so its gonna be a tight fit. Check it, rotate the engine, repeat. Good luck.
Thanks man, I'll do that
Ugod02010
09-24-2013, 05:40 AM
I'm with everyone else on the cam lobe being trashed. It's not as bad as regular lifters used to be rollers at least don't wear like older hydraulic ones. But with those groves I'm gonna say that even if it doesn't look messed up it probably has eaten Into that lobe. If ur changing cams soon its probably not absolutely nessisary to get out the micrometer. But at least do a visual inspection of the lobe make sure no metal chunks or shavings find there way into he engine or instead of just a cam ull b pulling pistons/rods as well. (Wonder if my noise is similar to ur problem they really really sound similar. I'm not in much of a hurry tho with mine since I smashed it so I'm in the process of pulling motor to pu into a roller I'm buying so I'm gonna yank off the intake and check out my lifters too) also probably gonna pick up that stethoscope I love anything that makes life easier in the garage
I'm with everyone else on the cam lobe being trashed. It's not as bad as regular lifters used to be rollers at least don't wear like older hydraulic ones. But with those groves I'm gonna say that even if it doesn't look messed up it probably has eaten Into that lobe. If ur changing cams soon its probably not absolutely nessisary to get out the micrometer. But at least do a visual inspection of the lobe make sure no metal chunks or shavings find there way into he engine or instead of just a cam ull b pulling pistons/rods as well. (Wonder if my noise is similar to ur problem they really really sound similar. I'm not in much of a hurry tho with mine since I smashed it so I'm in the process of pulling motor to pu into a roller I'm buying so I'm gonna yank off the intake and check out my lifters too) also probably gonna pick up that stethoscope I love anything that makes life easier in the garage
I agree, I will check it before I put everything back together. If I find something I'll do a cam upgrade right away. I think I'm lucky to have found the issue before I trashed the engine. I'm wondering what could have caused this? Probably the prev owner didn't do oil changes on time? Improper valve adjustment? Over-revved engine?
Ugod02010
09-26-2013, 05:23 AM
Or all the above!
I had a s10 with a built 355 and I had it out at my girlfriend at the times house. Was changing oil and got sidetracked. Next thing u know its weeks later we got into a huge figt so I went to pick up my car and drove it home bout 6miles with about a half quart of oil in it. Didn't start clacking till I was way way to far to do anything like stop at the Autostore or anywhere for oil. So needless to say I trashed cam and about 8-9 lifters. They were worn so bad if u put them on the table they would fall over there was that much of an angle worn into the bottoms. Ouch. Those groves and stuff on those almost look like something was to tigt or being starved of oil
fleetfeet2004
09-26-2013, 04:55 PM
Man, Diagnosing a noise is a real PITA. Been there, I hope it all works out for ya.
Or all the above!
I had a s10 with a built 355 and I had it out at my girlfriend at the times house. Was changing oil and got sidetracked. Next thing u know its weeks later we got into a huge figt so I went to pick up my car and drove it home bout 6miles with about a half quart of oil in it. Didn't start clacking till I was way way to far to do anything like stop at the Autostore or anywhere for oil. So needless to say I trashed cam and about 8-9 lifters. They were worn so bad if u put them on the table they would fall over there was that much of an angle worn into the bottoms. Ouch. Those groves and stuff on those almost look like something was to tigt or being starved of oil
Oh getting your cam and lifters trashed after a fight with your girlfriend doesn't sound like it was good day for you man hehe.. I think the rocker arms were probably too tight like you say man.
Man, Diagnosing a noise is a real PITA. Been there, I hope it all works out for ya.
thanks man, it sucks, hopefully I get the car running with no more noises soon
Today I checked the cam lobes from the lifter holes, I got say that the lobes of the 2 trashed lifters do seem to have worn more than the other 2 that I checked that had lifters in good shape. I say it because the lobe edges are a little higher than the rest of the lobe surface, it feels the same on both edges and apart from that the rest of the lobe surface is pretty smooth (According to a good friend who's been a mechanic for years, this kind of wear is normal or at least "acceptable), there are not signs of metal pieces coming apart from the cams nor any kind of grooves or any other types of damage..
I will be pulling the oil pan off cause I want to replace the gasket and also replace the rear main seal, I will see if I can see the cam lobes from the bottom to take a second look at them but so fa, as the cam seems not to be falling into pieces like we suspected :), I'm leaning to put everything back together with the same cam and new lifters and if I get the sound back, then I will replace the cam.
firebird_1995
09-29-2013, 11:51 AM
Man if you are dropping the oil pan you're only a few dollars worth of gaskets away from having the cam out. The need to drop the pan, (or at least break the seal) is the reason most guys choose not to replace the cam when they are at where you are.
popo8
09-29-2013, 03:01 PM
fyi...my last custom grind cam from LE. was 300.00
Food for thought since ur in THERE.
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
Sahara54
09-29-2013, 05:22 PM
I can honestly say my 160K mile cam I pulled from my original engine had no wear what so ever. I'm sorry but IMHO there is no acceptable wear on a cam for me; especially if you can see or feel the difference.
I know guys but for me I have to multiply the cam price by 2 as I have to pay for shipping plus taxes to my country. And also I would have to replace the 16 lifters, I've spent a lot on the car recently as the opti crapped out a few months ago and also got the new stall and the list of small repairs goes on and on so I think that I have to wait before I jump and do the cam swap. I wish I could do it now though
popo8
09-29-2013, 10:14 PM
We do understand...just some of us have been there and saving on a few hundred now...may hurt u more in the long run.
by no means are we pressuring u...just the "been there done that, learn from our mistakes " advice.
You may be just fine...but....if not......(ya know what im sayin)
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
firebird_1995
09-29-2013, 10:48 PM
At the very least, put a good used cam and 2 lifters in it. I have one id give you if you'll pay shipping.
We do understand...just some of us have been there and saving on a few hundred now...may hurt u more in the long run.
by no means are we pressuring u...just the "been there done that, learn from our mistakes " advice.
You may be just fine...but....if not......(ya know what im sayin)
MEMBER @ LTXtech.com
I know man, I always appreciate the good advice I get here and I know it has all the best intention
At the very least, put a good used cam and 2 lifters in it. I have one id give you if you'll pay shipping.
I really appreciate your offering man, that's very kind from you. However I'm planning on buying an aftermarket cam soon (I have an LT4 Hotcam in mind but I have to get some guidance on that), I will also plan on getting all the lifters, the timing chain, the rocker arms, springs and everything and once I have everything I will swap the cam but for now I will just put everything together with new lifters where I had damaged ones.
I was going to drop the pan today but I stepped back as the engine hoist a friend lent me was too short to let me raise the engine properly. I just replaced the rear main seal and I will put a new flexplate while I'm in here and I will save the pan gasket set and the timing cover gasket set for when I do the cam. I think I'm ok as this car is not my daily driver and I don't race it either so it will be in the garage the most of the time so I think the cam can wait a few months until I get all I need to do the upgrade
Hey guys I never uploaded a video after I replaced the lifters so for documentation purposes here you go..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLcib6G8rKQ
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLcib6G8rKQ)
As you can hear the noise is totally gone and car is running perfectly fine. I'm still planning to do the cam swap though, even more now that I have a 2800 stall so it's time for me to start doing some research on that matter..
popo8
01-06-2014, 12:48 AM
Great news man... Been a while...glad to see ur still passionate about the car...and so glad to see u back around.
LTXtech.com is my drug.
Great news man... Been a while...glad to see ur still passionate about the car...and so glad to see u back around.
LTXtech.com is my drug.
Thanks a lot man! Yeah I love that car :)
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