Looking for some quick Throttle Body help....

[popo8]

Most of you are aware of my current top end build to my boosted 385 Stroker.... For those that may not be:

http://ltxtech.com/forums/showthread.php?16819-POPOs-TOP-END-build-thread


Well, as we were putting it together, I decided to measure the holes on the "58mm" tb I have.... well....its a 52mm....DOH!!!!

Now, Im in a rush to buy another TB before the motor goes in.....

SHOULD I:

A, just buy a 58mm tb since that is what the intake is set up for.....

or

B, buy this (http://www.azspeed-marine.com/19ltfcoairin.html) bad boy, which will require some modification to my intake......



Do you all think it is worth it... I mean I know its cool as shyt, but is it WORTH it....? Ive done some googling, and tried to see what people think, but 90% of the topics are not boost builds......


Thanks All.....

[95formula383lt1]

I've done a build with a mono blade quality is worth the cost very nice clean piece with little modification to install. If I keep mine im def going to switch from my 58mm to mono

[popo8]

I've done a build with a mono blade quality is worth the cost very nice clean piece with little modification to install. If I keep mine im def going to switch from my 58mm to mono

But is it truley worth the modifications?

I mean, its only 25 bucks more than their 58mm tb.... but, if im going 58mm, Ill stay BBK and spend much less.

However if the consensus is that it will make a big difference, Ill get it.

[CamaroZGuy]

with my build i will just be going with a 58mm.

[JPack]

$320 shipped.... Good as new..... Just saw it this morning....
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/parts-sale-14/arizona-speed-marine-monoblade-throttle-body-848273/

[popo8]

$320 shipped.... Good as new..... Just saw it this morning....
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/parts-sale-14/arizona-speed-marine-monoblade-throttle-body-848273/

I posted on it... Do you think its worth it on my boosted app?

[popo8]

with my build i will just be going with a 58mm.

If I cant find any real feedback to tell me the monoblade is better, then that is what I will be doing as well...

[FSTFBDY]

IMO.if its only $25 more you can't go wrong. Its a nice billet piece vs a cast unit. Port the intake to match and be done with it. The way I see it. Port for it now while its all out of the car.

[JPack]

It won't hurt you in anyway. I know they are tricky to tune n/a bit you being boosted on a stock pcm it is already hard to dial in. I run a as&m tb on my car bit not a mono. I will tell you this, they are made specifically for an lt1 vs. Everyother brand out there using a tpi unit stating it is for an lt1. Doing some research on split blm issues will tell the whole story in the idle air control area. The as&m has the correct idle air passage but on more agressive set UPS like mine it has to be enlarged.

Personally I think it would be money well spent for your set up.

[popo8]

IMO.if its only $25 more you can't go wrong. Its a nice billet piece vs a cast unit. Port the intake to match and be done with it. The way I see it. Port for it now while its all out of the car.

Its 25 dollars over a regular 58mm from the same company... the problem is we are talking 425 and 450.....

[FSTFBDY]

Pay now or pay later. Its deff. Not gonna hurt. Do you have access to anyone with a mill or Cnc? Port yours to a 58 and make the butterfly plates. Hell toss it up on a mill and make it a mono blade.

[popo8]

Pay now or pay later. Its deff. Not gonna hurt. Do you have access to anyone with a mill or Cnc? Port yours to a 58 and make the butterfly plates. Hell toss it up on a mill and make it a mono blade.


I dont have time for fabricating.....need to buy, and get the motor together.

I just cant find any solid proof that the monoblade is better than a regular 58mm... no matter which 58 I would buy.

[95formula383lt1]

Takes 30 Mins with a dremel or similar tool to cut the intake for a mono.

[JPack]

More free area equals more airflow.

Simple math to put in perspective since airflow is what I do for a living.

You need to look at velocity in a fixed area.

Let's say we have a 6" round pipe. The free area of that pipe is .20 sq in. Say we want to move 100 cfm through that pipe. Our velocity is calculated as 100/.20 which is 500 feet per min.

Now let's increase the size pipe to 8". The free area is now .35 sq in. To move that same 100 cfm puts the velocity at 286 feet per min.

So by increasing it in size, it takes less feet per min to move the same cfm.

If we take a fixed feet per min delivery rate of 500 feet per min, that same 8" round pipe will now deliver 175 cfm (500x.35) so it is a gain of 75 cfm.

Flow rate of air is dependent on the pressure pulling it or pushing it. The two things limiting it and how it is measured is total pressure and static pressure. Most important is static pressure. Think of it as blowing up a balloon and the air inside is what is pushing out on the balloon. What you have is a blower on your set up. It will use what is called total fan static pressure. It is rated to move a certain amount of flow at a given inlet and discharge pressure.

Let's say in simple numbers your blower is rated at 500 cfm at a total fan static of 1.00 inches of water column. Your current set up as measured is delivering 400 cfm at 1.20 inches of water column. Your blower when plotted on a fan curve is restricted in flow and not operating at its peak design since its total fan static is above its rated capacity. Now you have to address what is the problem and how we can get it to its design or better than its rated flow. If our inlet static pressure to the blower is high and our discharge pressure is low, we have a restricted inlet to the blower. If we are low static pressure on the inlet and high on the discharge, our discharge is restricted.

Let's assume our discharge is restricted as in most cases that is the culprit. Say we have too small of pipe or a bottle neck such as too small of throttle body. If we correct that restriction or increase the bottleneck our blower will move more air and our total fan static will decrease. This indicates we are moving more air. A fan performance curve is fixed. If you have two knowns, the third unknown is calculatable and won't defy the laws of physics.

So, if you give the discharge path of air the least amount of resistance, you will meet or exceed the manufacturers performance data. This is the key to extracting everything you can out of a given set up. Making sure your heads are sized to match design input airflow as well as exhaust is matched to inlet flow will get you the most out of what you have. Think of it this way, you can't put 5 gallons in a 3 gallon pail. Match it all up and get all you can.

[zooguy]

go mono

[popo8]

More free area equals more airflow.

Simple math to put in perspective since airflow is what I do for a living.

You need to look at velocity in a fixed area.

Let's say we have a 6" round pipe. The free area of that pipe is .20 sq in. Say we want to move 100 cfm through that pipe. Our velocity is calculated as 100/.20 which is 500 feet per min.

Now let's increase the size pipe to 8". The free area is now .35 sq in. To move that same 100 cfm puts the velocity at 286 feet per min.

So by increasing it in size, it takes less feet per min to move the same cfm.

If we take a fixed feet per min delivery rate of 500 feet per min, that same 8" round pipe will now deliver 175 cfm (500x.35) so it is a gain of 75 cfm.

Flow rate of air is dependent on the pressure pulling it or pushing it. The two things limiting it and how it is measured is total pressure and static pressure. Most important is static pressure. Think of it as blowing up a balloon and the air inside is what is pushing out on the balloon. What you have is a blower on your set up. It will use what is called total fan static pressure. It is rated to move a certain amount of flow at a given inlet and discharge pressure.

Let's say in simple numbers your blower is rated at 500 cfm at a total fan static of 1.00 inches of water column. Your current set up as measured is delivering 400 cfm at 1.20 inches of water column. Your blower when plotted on a fan curve is restricted in flow and not operating at its peak design since its total fan static is above its rated capacity. Now you have to address what is the problem and how we can get it to its design or better than its rated flow. If our inlet static pressure to the blower is high and our discharge pressure is low, we have a restricted inlet to the blower. If we are low static pressure on the inlet and high on the discharge, our discharge is restricted.

Let's assume our discharge is restricted as in most cases that is the culprit. Say we have too small of pipe or a bottle neck such as too small of throttle body. If we correct that restriction or increase the bottleneck our blower will move more air and our total fan static will decrease. This indicates we are moving more air. A fan performance curve is fixed. If you have two knowns, the third unknown is calculatable and won't defy the laws of physics.

So, if you give the discharge path of air the least amount of resistance, you will meet or exceed the manufacturers performance data. This is the key to extracting everything you can out of a given set up. Making sure your heads are sized to match design input airflow as well as exhaust is matched to inlet flow will get you the most out of what you have. Think of it this way, you can't put 5 gallons in a 3 gallon pail. Match it all up and get all you can.

That makes alot of sense, and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it that way....

From what I have seen, the positive is about an extra 5-10 hp......

Do you guys think that is worth all the work involved in this.... and the cost of a 450 dollar piece as compared to a 300 dollar 58mm bbk....?

[FSTFBDY]

Any billet machined piece is worth the extra $ vs a cast piece IMO. What's an extra few Benjamins when you already have a handful of em in the build.

Say you get a 58mm now. And then decide well shit I should have got a mono blade. Guess what... now your pulling an intake off again to port it.

[FSTFBDY]

P.s. Jack said it well.

[popo8]

Any billet machined piece is worth the extra $ vs a cast piece IMO. What's an extra few Benjamins when you already have a handful of em in the build.

Say you get a 58mm now. And then decide well shit I should have got a mono blade. Guess what... now your pulling an intake off again to port it.

With something as simple as a TB, what is the benifit of Bilit over cast? And I dont mind spending money, its just the spend/benifit factors that concern me...

[JPack]

.oh hell no on the bbk . Number one problem throttle body out there next to holley. The bbk unit has the worst iac path out there. It takes the idle air in and dumps it in the plenum instead of the idle air passage in the intake. If you look at an intake, each runner has tin the y hole. That is where the idle air goes from the small hole in the front of the intake. When you dump the idle air in the plenum, it just dumps in and goes where ever. The idle air circuit is crucial in stopping split blms and tuning for idle. If that is bypassed like the bbk does, you are gonna have a nightmare.

Seriously, the mod for monoblade is simple. Cut across and finish the edge. Should take no longer than a half hr to complete with it off the engine. If you don't go mono blade, just get the as&m 58. Either way you will be modding the intake for either to fit.

[Fastbird]

.oh hell no on the bbk . Number one problem throttle body out there next to holley. The bbk unit has the worst iac path out there. It takes the idle air in and dumps it in the plenum instead of the idle air passage in the intake. If you look at an intake, each runner has tin the y hole. That is where the idle air goes from the small hole in the front of the intake. When you dump the idle air in the plenum, it just dumps in and goes where ever. The idle air circuit is crucial in stopping split blms and tuning for idle. If that is bypassed like the bbk does, you are gonna have a nightmare.

Seriously, the mod for monoblade is simple. Cut across and finish the edge. Should take no longer than a half hr to complete with it off the engine. If you don't go mono blade, just get the as&m 58. Either way you will be modding the intake for either to fit.

You can fix that though. My BBK took some work, but IAC is as stock and its smooth as silk for the tb actuation now too. It and the Holley are perfectly fine pieces, you just have to deal with a couple of nuances. The ASM stuff is top notch, but the price point is hard to swallow for most people.

I'm making my power through my 58 from BBK. Larry, if you're dead set on spending the money, then go with the monoblade. Otherwise, just grab the BBK imo.

Posted from my Rezound

[JPack]

Agreed yes it can be fixed with some mods. For what any of the tb cost though they should not have to be modded. A little bit of R&d would have gone a long way instead of using a tpi unit and saying its for an lt1

[zooguy]

does any one know the EXACT CFM for the 58 vs. the mono?

[dsmawd350]

stock~710cfm, ASM 58mm = 1050, ASM monoblade 1350 cfm

[JCzNova]

That makes alot of sense, and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it that way....

From what I have seen, the positive is about an extra 5-10 hp......

Do you guys think that is worth all the work involved in this.... and the cost of a 450 dollar piece as compared to a 300 dollar 58mm bbk....?

Would I pay $150 and some of my time for 10HP? Probably more times than not.

[popo8]

.oh hell no on the bbk . Number one problem throttle body out there next to holley. The bbk unit has the worst iac path out there. It takes the idle air in and dumps it in the plenum instead of the idle air passage in the intake. If you look at an intake, each runner has tin the y hole. That is where the idle air goes from the small hole in the front of the intake. When you dump the idle air in the plenum, it just dumps in and goes where ever. The idle air circuit is crucial in stopping split blms and tuning for idle. If that is bypassed like the bbk does, you are gonna have a nightmare.

Seriously, the mod for monoblade is simple. Cut across and finish the edge. Should take no longer than a half hr to complete with it off the engine. If you don't go mono blade, just get the as&m 58. Either way you will be modding the intake for either to fit.

Really... my 52 is a BBK. Thats weird.

Also if I do what looks like the cutting for the monoblade, I will clearly be cutting through that little hole under the TB holes... It just didnt seem like a good idea...

[popo8]

Do you guys think its ok to cut into that little hole in between the TB inlets to modify the intake for the monoblade?

That hole is actually a small passage way that goes in on a 45* angle down.....

Its just an assumption, but I believe the monoblade will connect the 12 o clocks and the 6 oclocks of the current openings.....8521

[JPack]

That is actually the passage for the idle air out to the runners like I was saying earlier.

If oh have a stock tb laying around, flip it around and compare the back side of it to your bbk. Look specifically where that idle air hole would line up. Tell me what you see different.

[popo8]

That is actually the passage for the idle air out to the runners like I was saying earlier.

If oh have a stock tb laying around, flip it around and compare the back side of it to your bbk. Look specifically where that idle air hole would line up. Tell me what you see different.


Damn, all my stuff is at the garage, and Im at home..........

[Fastbird]

That hole is the main IAC passage that is used for idle air distribution. Guys with crazy split BLM's at idle (one side rich, one side lean) usually have issues stemming from air NOT being routed through that passageway. If you look on the bottom floor of each manifold runner, you'll see a small opening in each one, which is where that hole behind the TB leads. This is also what JPack was addressing in that the BBK, in it's unaltered form, doesn't seal off that hole and dumps IAC air into the main plenum, and why a fix is usually necessitated in the form of a copper pipe and some JB Weld.

[popo8]

I guess in my mind, to make two circles an oval, the oval will be as tall (in the center) as the two top and bottom points (12 oclock and 6 oclock) of the circles.....





8522



Well, doesnt that dig into the space you are speaking of......




I want the monoblade, just concerned with cutting to much stuff at this point....

[popo8]

That hole is the main IAC passage that is used for idle air distribution. Guys with crazy split BLM's at idle (one side rich, one side lean) usually have issues stemming from air NOT being routed through that passageway. If you look on the bottom floor of each manifold runner, you'll see a small opening in each one, which is where that hole behind the TB leads. This is also what JPack was addressing in that the BBK, in it's unaltered form, doesn't seal off that hole and dumps IAC air into the main plenum, and why a fix is usually necessitated in the form of a copper pipe and some JB Weld.


So if I went with the fancy monoblade one, you dont think the opening that I will be cutting will interfere with that little hole. I guess its hard to figure in my head with just pics to refference, but..... i feel like I would be cutting right through the middle of that hole....

[JPack]

Here is how you resolve the problem. Pretty easy....

http://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-modifications/1406676-new-iac-path-people-monoblade-other-aftermarket-tbs.html

[popo8]

Here is how you resolve the problem. Pretty easy....

http://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-modifications/1406676-new-iac-path-people-monoblade-other-aftermarket-tbs.html

Looks like they actually did cut into that little spot, so they end up closing it off, and routing the air from under the intake into the hole under the throttle body......? Am I understanding it correctly?

[JPack]

You are correct sir.

[popo8]

IM GONNA DO IT!

MONOBLADE HERE I COME!!!!