Cross
10-17-2008, 10:04 PM
So I have been reading up once again on that ever non-ending debate of the Harmonic Balancer and its Rubber Dampener ring or running without. (As is possible with some UnderDrive Pulleys like the March Kit which suggests the use of the stock pulley after putting the UDP on your car)
I have been looking into it for years and on the little V6's I enjoy daily driving I have found the rings to always be rotted out and frankly they are not needed in my views. All 4 motors don't leak oil, have great compression still and now run UDP's that do not have the ring.
I also did not feel any gains *Shrugs* just another mod but then they are 2.5L V6's and really its just a "Dammit I wanna play with something" change.
As for my real toy.... I of course felt the same way but I decided before I went to far with it I would read up again and it seems the debate STILL has not gotten any further. One side refuses to run without it... the other shows no signs of problems not using it.
So I thought I would ask here and see the fun that ensues... at the very worst we can all have a few beers and enjoy what could be a funny thread with a few sig worthy replies.
My personal views:
For a piece that is spin balanced originally then also looking at the use of a flywheel... and the fact that the stock dampeners 7/10 have a rotted ring... are you really getting the effects of that stock setup you were meant too?
(Right now the motor I own came with a UDP and no stock pulley on after it. Along that same line I have a stocker that's in ok shape sitting useless here just because I collect parts... as always.)
Since I def do not see over 7000rpms with this motor I am not as concerned and to be honest the new toy I am play with megasquirt on that maybe in the next 2 months will be ready... will be seeing 9000rpm's but again its a little V6 and I am def considering the same UDP yet again. (Sorry off topic)
However I can see how it does not hurt to have it on however my take on UDP's was more then just reducing belt size but weight. Now this is where my information may be flawed because frankly it seems the argument gets stuck other places.
With the UDP to me the loss of unsprung weight is the gain to me, less rotational mass on the crank front is the same to me as less weight on the rear (aka lightened flywheel) so if you gain (Or if you pref it worded, gain the ability to spin up faster) from a lighter flywheel why not a lighter crank pulley? The Added effects of a shorter belt only seem to sweeten the deal of yet just another mod added to the list.
Now with all that said lets see those come out and tell me I am nuts etc etc. (Keep in mind the vehicle is not being driven I am awaiting a BMR Tq arm and then a trip to the exhaust shop to connect my new long tubes to the exhaust I have. I have been working on my swap into the Formula and many other things for about 3 months now just finishing up and getting ready to get her completely dyno tuned).
Now to go grab a beer and get ready to be blasted lol.
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Someone else brought up how they do not see how the belts can not act as part of that dampener for the vibrations. I have no answer and would like to see that added in if it does anything anyway.
He also posted this information: (1994Z28Lt1 on LS1Tech)
i posted in your other thread one of the common arguments stating why you need a harmonic balancer... and it makes sense to me the the idea behind it, dampening the torsional vibration from the crankshaft.
but does the belt perform some the the same duties? stretching slightly and then retracting slightly during these pulses to affectively dampen the torsional vibration? but is it affective enough?
my personal viewpoint is to leave the harmonic balancer on. I dont plan on getting underdrive pulleys for my car since the gains are really too small since the water pump is not driven by the belt anyway. Driving in a straight line, your power steering pump shouldn't be working very hard, and there will always be nearly same amount of drag from your alternator. Lets say it takes 40 amps to maintain your battery and operate all the accessories, whether your alternator is turning 4000 rpm or 5000 rpm it still has to produce that 40 amps, therefore it will need roughly the same amount turning force to do so, except i would rather produce that 40 amps at 5000 rpm since it will operate slightly cooler because the cooling fan will be moving more air.
For me it's not worth the risk to remove the dampener since somewhere along the way its been accepted enough that pretty much every engine that i can think of has been factory equipped with a dampener
just some food for thought perhaps we can get a good discussion going
--------
So who else wants to chime in before I finally start my car up after the long swap, build and play lol.
UDP = UnderDrive Pulley
Here this is the UnderDrive Pulley Type most commonly found online:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/21101/10002/-1
And this is a Harmonic Balancer not attached or setup for a Main Crank Pulley but meant to be an addition much like a companion to the above UDP:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/51606/10002/-1
I have been looking into it for years and on the little V6's I enjoy daily driving I have found the rings to always be rotted out and frankly they are not needed in my views. All 4 motors don't leak oil, have great compression still and now run UDP's that do not have the ring.
I also did not feel any gains *Shrugs* just another mod but then they are 2.5L V6's and really its just a "Dammit I wanna play with something" change.
As for my real toy.... I of course felt the same way but I decided before I went to far with it I would read up again and it seems the debate STILL has not gotten any further. One side refuses to run without it... the other shows no signs of problems not using it.
So I thought I would ask here and see the fun that ensues... at the very worst we can all have a few beers and enjoy what could be a funny thread with a few sig worthy replies.
My personal views:
For a piece that is spin balanced originally then also looking at the use of a flywheel... and the fact that the stock dampeners 7/10 have a rotted ring... are you really getting the effects of that stock setup you were meant too?
(Right now the motor I own came with a UDP and no stock pulley on after it. Along that same line I have a stocker that's in ok shape sitting useless here just because I collect parts... as always.)
Since I def do not see over 7000rpms with this motor I am not as concerned and to be honest the new toy I am play with megasquirt on that maybe in the next 2 months will be ready... will be seeing 9000rpm's but again its a little V6 and I am def considering the same UDP yet again. (Sorry off topic)
However I can see how it does not hurt to have it on however my take on UDP's was more then just reducing belt size but weight. Now this is where my information may be flawed because frankly it seems the argument gets stuck other places.
With the UDP to me the loss of unsprung weight is the gain to me, less rotational mass on the crank front is the same to me as less weight on the rear (aka lightened flywheel) so if you gain (Or if you pref it worded, gain the ability to spin up faster) from a lighter flywheel why not a lighter crank pulley? The Added effects of a shorter belt only seem to sweeten the deal of yet just another mod added to the list.
Now with all that said lets see those come out and tell me I am nuts etc etc. (Keep in mind the vehicle is not being driven I am awaiting a BMR Tq arm and then a trip to the exhaust shop to connect my new long tubes to the exhaust I have. I have been working on my swap into the Formula and many other things for about 3 months now just finishing up and getting ready to get her completely dyno tuned).
Now to go grab a beer and get ready to be blasted lol.
----
Someone else brought up how they do not see how the belts can not act as part of that dampener for the vibrations. I have no answer and would like to see that added in if it does anything anyway.
He also posted this information: (1994Z28Lt1 on LS1Tech)
i posted in your other thread one of the common arguments stating why you need a harmonic balancer... and it makes sense to me the the idea behind it, dampening the torsional vibration from the crankshaft.
but does the belt perform some the the same duties? stretching slightly and then retracting slightly during these pulses to affectively dampen the torsional vibration? but is it affective enough?
my personal viewpoint is to leave the harmonic balancer on. I dont plan on getting underdrive pulleys for my car since the gains are really too small since the water pump is not driven by the belt anyway. Driving in a straight line, your power steering pump shouldn't be working very hard, and there will always be nearly same amount of drag from your alternator. Lets say it takes 40 amps to maintain your battery and operate all the accessories, whether your alternator is turning 4000 rpm or 5000 rpm it still has to produce that 40 amps, therefore it will need roughly the same amount turning force to do so, except i would rather produce that 40 amps at 5000 rpm since it will operate slightly cooler because the cooling fan will be moving more air.
For me it's not worth the risk to remove the dampener since somewhere along the way its been accepted enough that pretty much every engine that i can think of has been factory equipped with a dampener
just some food for thought perhaps we can get a good discussion going
--------
So who else wants to chime in before I finally start my car up after the long swap, build and play lol.
UDP = UnderDrive Pulley
Here this is the UnderDrive Pulley Type most commonly found online:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/21101/10002/-1
And this is a Harmonic Balancer not attached or setup for a Main Crank Pulley but meant to be an addition much like a companion to the above UDP:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/51606/10002/-1