new guy at nitrous and i got some questions

[zooguy]

okay i got a motor with 94,XXX and i might put spray on it.

what is safe for stock everything and a daily driver car.

later on i will do bolt-ons but for now lets say the car is all stock~!!!

and i want to feel it .... but not cook the insides

[SexyTransAm]

i hit mine with 125 at 126xxx miles. do a compression check to make sure its still in good shape and look into a walbro 255 fuel pump.

[TA the destroyer]

i know you want power easy and cheap but honestly if i where you i would save and do all bolt ons. power all the time and anywhere but your gonna do what you wanna do. i wouldnt go over a 100 shot on a high milage stock bottom end.

[zooguy]

bolt ons will happen as i can get them but i want to start learning about nitrous now so i know what to do later

[zooguy]

also i want to know what is a better set up for a every once-in -a-while shots of juice. DRY or WET ( i really dont know what makes them different :helpsmilie: )

["NO SHOW"]

I would suggest giving Nitrous Outlet a call, they can tell you exactly what you need. I am running there wet hard line kit and its one of the cleanest set-ups on the market imo. I am running a 150 shot on my LT1 and on the dyno it saw 148 hp gain to the wheels on the spray. They sell a complete kit all the way down to the spark plugs (because you will need to run a colder plug with nitrous). The kit is what I suggest because I was new to nitrous when I bought my kit and I wanted to be sure I had everything I needed and it was the kit was as complete as you can get it.

[TA the destroyer]

your gonna need to retard timming for anything above 75 shot, and anything above 100 shot on a stock bottom end with high milage is a risky game. but you will wanna run a wet kit.

[gregrob]

your gonna need to retard timming for anything above 75 shot, and anything above 100 shot on a stock bottom end with high milage is a risky game. but you will wanna run a wet kit.

That depends on whether he has a stock tune or not.

[SexyTransAm]

your gonna need to retard timming for anything above 75 shot, and anything above 100 shot on a stock bottom end with high milage is a risky game. but you will wanna run a wet kit.
i did 125 on stock timing. with tr6 plugs

[TA the destroyer]

i did 125 on stock timing. with tr6 plugs
and its a big posability you had a bit of knock while juicing, and im sure it would of ran much harder or put down better number with the correct timing retard or tune.

[TA the destroyer]

That depends on whether he has a stock tune or not.
very true but wouldnt the tune be set to retard timing at WOT..????

[gregrob]

very true but wouldnt the tune be set to retard timing at WOT..????


Not sure what you're asking... the stock tune isn't set to retard timing at WOT, no.

What I'm saying is that the timing on a stock tune is conservative enough that people can and many DO run up to a 125 shot on a stock tune.

If he has a mail order, dyno tune, or hand held programmer tune that has changed the timing tables to make them more aggressive, then yes he would need to retard timing to be safe on even a 100 shot, or more.

[SexyTransAm]

and its a big posability you had a bit of knock while juicing, and im sure it would of ran much harder or put down better number with the correct timing retard or tune.
not goin to knock on a stock tune and timing with that lil of a shot unless something is wrong. my car runs hard when i hit it, went from 9.20s to 8.0s. and the car never did anything funny. but i also had a 160 thermostat with the fans tuned for it so the car ran cool so that may have helped. and a lt4 knock module just for the hell of it.and it was in the car when i got it

[TA the destroyer]

not goin to knock on a stock tune and timing with that lil of a shot unless something is wrong. my car runs hard when i hit it, went from 9.20s to 8.0s. and the car never did anything funny. but i also had a 160 thermostat with the fans tuned for it so the car ran cool so that may have helped. and a lt4 knock module just for the hell of it.and it was in the car when i got it
more power to you then, ive just seen from experiance while data logging on a 100 shot the pcm picked up a slight bit of knock and retarded some timing. somthing you probley wouldnt even notice without data logging.

[TA the destroyer]

tune.

If he has a mail order, dyno tune, or hand held programmer tune that has changed the timing tables to make them more aggressive, then yes he would need to retard timing to be safe on even a 100 shot, or more.[/QUOTE]

ya sorry thats what i was referring to, i was just explaining from experiance and what ive seen.

["NO SHOW"]

not goin to knock on a stock tune and timing with that lil of a shot unless something is wrong. my car runs hard when i hit it, went from 9.20s to 8.0s. and the car never did anything funny. but i also had a 160 thermostat with the fans tuned for it so the car ran cool so that may have helped. and a lt4 knock module just for the hell of it.and it was in the car when i got it

How big of a shot were you spraying to drop 1.20 seconds?

When I first put the kit on my car I had knock retard bad, and to be honest never did figure it out and chalked it up to false knock, I know this isn't the safe thing to do. I am running the MSD ignition box now to retard timing. I am being conservative and pulling 8.5 degrees of timing on the 150 shot. Even pulling 8.5 degrees it still cranks out an additional 148 hp on the dyno so know reason to pull less timing imo when its putting out 148 on a 150 shot.

[TA the destroyer]

How big of a shot were you spraying to drop 1.20 seconds?

When I first put the kit on my car I had knock retard bad, and to be honest never did figure it out and chalked it up to false knock, I know this isn't the safe thing to do. I am running the MSD ignition box now to retard timing. I am being conservative and pulling 8.5 degrees of timing on the 150 shot. Even pulling 8.5 degrees it still cranks out an additional 148 hp on the dyno so know reason to pull less timing imo when its putting out 148 on a 150 shot.
thats what most people run, the MSD/ACCEL ingnition boxes. and you dont retard timing just for knock, nitrious burns at a faster rate then gasolin. so pulling some timing helps for a better and more efficent ignition of the air and fuel mixture. but this leads to trying to get the most out of your set up, which i got frowned apon in a differnt thread....

[SexyTransAm]

How big of a shot were you spraying to drop 1.20 seconds?


just a the 125

[gregrob]

thats what most people run, the MSD/ACCEL ingnition boxes. and you dont retard timing just for knock, nitrious burns at a faster rate then gasolin. so pulling some timing helps for a better and more efficent ignition of the air and fuel mixture. but this leads to trying to get the most out of your set up, which i got frowned apon in a differnt thread....

Nitrous doesn't "burn" at all....

[TA the destroyer]

Nitrous doesn't "burn" at all....
im sorry what i ment to say is by adding nitrous the total amount of oxygen is increased, so in trun it speeds up the burn rate and requires less timing.

[gregrob]

True. Sorry, not trying to be nitpicky. Just could be misleading to noobs :)

[TA the destroyer]

True. Sorry, not trying to be nitpicky. Just could be misleading to noobs :)
naw i hear you no hard feelings.

[jakesz28]

im sorry what i ment to say is by adding nitrous the total amount of oxygen is increased, so in trun it speeds up the burn rate and requires less timing.



Sounds good to me. :peace2:


Without data logging I'm sure most people don't realize that the knock sensor pulling timing has saved a few motors but not the way I would want it. If you can pull some timing and not slow down the timing wasn't needed.

[gregrob]

If you can pull some timing and not slow down the timing wasn't needed.


Very true!

Thats why I usually pull more than everyone thinks you should and the car feels just as strong.

The real way to dial in the timing is to read ALL of your plugs. But that's a pita with these cars so most people end up tuning off of the knock sensor and call it good. Not realizing that just because the knock sensor doesn't show knock doesnt mean you couldn't run less timing and go faster and / or be safer.

.02

[zooguy]

wow so what i can guess from this thread is i can run a 75 shot and be safe with a stock motor :hmm:

[SexyTransAm]

yes

[TA the destroyer]

wow so what i can guess from this thread is i can run a 75 shot and be safe with a stock motor :hmm:
and without retarding any timing.

[AChotrod]

Nitrous is expensive, you could do almost all your bolts ons for the price a of a complete kit.

[zooguy]

would full bolt ons give me 75hp

[TA the destroyer]

would full bolt ons give me 75hp
i wouldnt say that much but it would be power all the time and anywhere and wouldnt have to worry about refilling bottles all the time.and it would be reliable power.

[SexyTransAm]

but spray is so much fun!

[zooguy]

what am i looking at with full bolt ons?

[TA the destroyer]

depending on emissions, headers, high flow cat or ORY, cat back and cai are the main ones. those are what would be frist on my list, then maybe a 52mm TB, gears and if an auto a stall and maybe some suspension. then i would get a mail order tune and you would be pretty close to 300hp at the wheels. people have made some pretty impressive times on bolt on only cars.

[gregrob]

Not to mention you need to do full bolt ons to spray.

At least I prefer it that way. The opened up intake and exhaust will help flow like the nitrous will want to.

Do full bolt ons, then spray a 150. You will love it.

[AChotrod]

Not to mention you need to do full bolt ons to spray.

At least I prefer it that way. The opened up intake and exhaust will help flow like the nitrous will want to.

Do full bolt ons, then spray a 150. You will love it.
I agree 100% Bolt ons then spray! Prices will vary depending on new/used options and companies.

[TA the destroyer]

in like 3 weeks ill have headers y pipe and catback for sell for a really good price. i already have gears for sell in the for sell section.

[zooguy]

if i got a stock motor how much would a tune do?

[TA the destroyer]

it will run smoother, better mpg and some more power of course..... solomon (lt1pcmtuning.com) said a guy reported a 30+rwhp gain on a stock bolt on motor. thats who i would do through for a mail order tune, you cant beat the price for the service he offers!

[zooguy]

wait was the motor stock or did it have bolt ons?

did he see gains like that on a stock motor no bolt ons?

[gregrob]

He said bolt on right there. Just read

[zooguy]

so to make sure i understand a "stock bolt on motor" has boltons with stock insides?

[ItSSlowZ28]

so to make sure i understand a "stock bolt on motor" has boltons with stock insides?

correct. cam, headwork, pistons, crank, rods, all mean its not just a bolt-on motor. usually, if you have to take the valve covers off, its not a bolt-on. roller rockers being the exception

[TA the destroyer]

correct. cam, headwork, pistons, crank, rods, all mean its not just a bolt-on motor. usually, if you have to take the valve covers off, its not a bolt-on. roller rockers being the exception
exactly!
and to clarify he gaind 30+hp from the tune alone. but you have to remember this is a case by case situation. some poeple see better results then other. but on a average ( stock internal, bolt on) motor you will see about 10hp from just the tune. a tune helps with more then just giving you some extra hp.....

[zooguy]

(revived) okay guys ... i have done lots of research and reading and got it all hooked up ... one last question ...

for a 75 shot do i need colder plugs?

[popo8]

Glad to see ur doin all this research Troy, before just jabbin the button... But u have got to be itchin to see what it will do.


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

[zooguy]

YOU BET YOUR ASS I AM!!!!!

[popo8]

Someone help this guy quick... So he can spray it!!!


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

[zooguy]

thanks popo

[93M6Formula]

Good thread, I've been really itchin' to spray my car and was about to start a similar thread. Keep the answers comin'!

[1fstss]

run a TR55 on a 75 shot, never spray on a platinum plug. and why such a baby shot? you running a honda motor in your camaro? ive logged LT1s running a 150 shot with no timing pulled and had no knock. but after about 2 pulls your gonna wanna step it up LOL, your safe up to a 150... but this is on a full bolt on car, so its getting air in and out better than a car with nothing. but if you step up the spray over 100 i would run a TR6 and knock down the gap a bit, id say like to .038-.040
what are you using for a WOT switch? and remember never ever spray under 3K or expect to have a nitrous back fire...

[Tyler Wheat]

I've ran my kit up to 125 pills on a bolt-on car with TR6 plugs and no issues. I usually just kept the 75 jets in for peace of mind. Lots of street racing on those. Have you bought a kit already? Mine old setup is for sale. I bought a nitrous outlet plate kit off of here.

[Tyler Wheat]

I will say that I would get a FPSS, window switch, and WOT switch along with colder plugs if you're going to do it.

[1fstss]

ive had more problems with FPSS that good... i never run them, with our cars either the pump is working or it isnt...

[93M6Formula]

Not to highjack, but just to get an idea how some the stuff works. I have 6-speed car so I want to run a WOT and a window switch. Say I have it set to spray 3,500 RPM to 5,800 RPM. I suppose you wire the Window Switch to run only when the WOT switch is activated? Just curious how that works.

[1fstss]

thats correct, but bring your spray in at 3K ive been playing for years with nitrous stuff. also with the 6 speed if you left off the gas between shifts you wont need a window switch, but it sounds like you do the no lift shift like you should :) im a very big person on having my kits as simple as possible. just remember the LT1 is very forgiving with nitrous.

[zooguy]

i am having GREGROB look at the timing tonight ... i got some BR7EF plugs and i will be spraying very very soon

[1fstss]

why are you running a 7? thats way to cold bud.... if you where on like a 250 shot id recommend a 7.

[93M6Formula]

thats correct, but bring your spray in at 3K ive been playing for years with nitrous stuff. also with the 6 speed if you left off the gas between shifts you wont need a window switch, but it sounds like you do the no lift shift like you should :) im a very big person on having my kits as simple as possible. just remember the LT1 is very forgiving with nitrous.

Thanks! Good to know. I'm hoping next year after I reach my goal of a 12.99 on boltons (i'm close) I will spray at least a 100. I'm tired of being slow so it's time to step it up haha. I have an S60, new T-56, and good running 113K original motor so I know it will take it.

While I have your attention lol, Would you recommend a wet 100 shot? Or would a dry shot be safe enough?

[1fstss]

wet kit... ive ran dry before and it works, but i prefer not to stress my injectors anymore than i need too LOL and FYI i have experience with harris speed works, nitro daves brand X, NX, Zex and NOS... my NX kits are my favorite thus far... i installed a brand X on my buddies vette and it worked well, my dad has harris speed works on his (dry kit) and i want to slap him for it, and i also own a 2 stage NOS kit with super power shot solinoids. the ZEX was a dry kit... it was my 1st nitrous kit. i think right now i personally have 2 NX kits, 2 NOS kits, 1 off brand kit, and a few other various parts...

[93M6Formula]

Cool, I was looking at a Nitrous Outlet Plate kit but we'll see i guess.

[1fstss]

im just now gonna play with a plate kit, ive always used a pin.

[Tyler Wheat]

ive had more problems with FPSS that good... i never run them, with our cars either the pump is working or it isnt...

What kind of issues have you ran into? Wiring problems or malfunction with the FPSS? I've never had any problems with mine and I'm all about a little added insurance.

[Tyler Wheat]

This is going to be my first plate kit as well. I'm pretty stoked to have such a clean kit under the hood now.

[zooguy]

I popped my Nitrous Cherry!!!!!!!!!!!!

75 shot and it was fun!!!

i want to get the car dynoed to see it i am running in a good A/F ratio and also see if i am really getting a full
75 RWHP on the hit.

[popo8]

I popped my Nitrous Cherry!!!!!!!!!!!!

75 shot and it was fun!!!

i want to get the car dynoed to see it i am running in a good A/F ratio and also see if i am really getting a full
75 RWHP on the hit.


Goodluck....

[SexyTransAm]

congrats. now hit it with a real shot!

[zooguy]

that hurt a little ...

i have a tune for a 75 shot with 3* pulled and another one with 6* pulled i will spray a 125 shot on

i know with 6 i can do a 150 ... but i am thinking about my bottom end

[1fstss]

if you jetted it right youll be on your target AF ratio... and my issue with FPSS are most the time they wont work, ive seen it happen on multiple vehicles where it wont allow the nitrous to fire, and these cars are all equipt with fuel pressure gauges and are getting more than enough pressure... and plus with our cars either our pumps work or they dont...

and why the hell are you pulling timing on a 75 shot? and the rule is 2 degrees per 50 after 100... so at a 100 shot you pull no timing... your computer will pull 2 on its own if it sees knock... and a 150 wont kill your bottom end... just pull 2 degrees of you have a 685 mallory or similar .. if not let it eat... ive been doing it for years...

[zooguy]

see i dont want the car to ever see knock ... so i pulled timing out of the tune. i dont trust the knock sensor as much as others.

i dont want my car to tell me its doing some thing and try to fix the issue it seeing.

i dont want the issue in the first place.

[SexyTransAm]

i was running stock timing on a 125 hit before my cam install. but its ur car and i know what ya mean. but if u think a 75 hit was fun then a 150 or hell even a 125 will make u

http://youtu.be/VLnWf1sQkjY

[1fstss]

step 1 hook up nitrous
step 2 hook up laptop
step 3 drive car
step 4 start logging car
step 5 spray nitrous
step 6 if knock is detected step up your fuel jet
step 7 repeat...

every degree of un needed timing you pull the more your shooting your self in the foot... i mean its your car but spraying nitrous isnt something new to these and we all know what shots will do what, and whats safe and whats not. with the timing your pulling your maybe seeing 50hp at the flywheel... give or take

[gregrob]

step 1 hook up nitrous
step 2 hook up laptop
step 3 drive car
step 4 start logging car
step 5 spray nitrous
step 6 if knock is detected step up your fuel jet
step 7 repeat...

every degree of un needed timing you pull the more your shooting your self in the foot... i mean its your car but spraying nitrous isnt something new to these and we all know what shots will do what, and whats safe and whats not. with the timing your pulling your maybe seeing 50hp at the flywheel... give or take


You can not be serious? That's definitely the worst advice I've ever heard.

That's a real good way to have people blowing shit up. You are on the bandwagon of everyone else who "thinks" they know what nitrous wants. Too rich, and way overtimed. That's what tears shit up!!!

I can't tell you the cars I've retuned from "professional" tuners and I have PULLED timing and PULLED fuel. The tune is MUCH safer and FASTER when I'm done. I've done it over and over.

Tuning nitrous on a dyno is worthless as well just FYI.

Troy if you want a real "list" of wash, rinse, and repeat for tuning your nitrous, you know where to find me.

I really wish people who don't know what they're talking about, would just refrain from giving "advice" altogether.

[firebird_1995]

see i dont want the car to ever see knock ... so i pulled timing out of the tune. i dont trust the knock sensor as much as others.

i dont want my car to tell me its doing some thing and try to fix the issue it seeing.

i dont want the issue in the first place.

Better safe than sorry. Maybe you didn't have to pull timing but if you have the means of doing it, why not. You can always step it back up later if the datalog looks good. I'm glad you were finally able to hit it. What plugs did you end up going with?

[Tyler Wheat]

http://t.qkme.me/3rjqti.jpg

[gregrob]

I made that ^

[Tyler Wheat]

Tuning nitrous on a dyno is worthless as well just FYI.



I'm curious as to why this is would not be the preferred method to use a load bearing dyno. I figured you could start conservative in regards to timing pulled and work your way up and see what is making power while checking for knock? Why is that not the case? You've sparked my curiosity.

[Tyler Wheat]

I made that ^

Hahaha I remember it on facebook somewhere. Those things crack me up

[gregrob]

I'm curious as to why this is would not be the preferred method to use a load bearing dyno. I figured you could start conservative in regards to timing pulled and work your way up and see what is making power while checking for knock? Why is that not the case? You've sparked my curiosity.


First off most people dont use load dynos, if you have access to one then it can be a viable tuning option.

The best method however is tuning on the track... you can't replicate what loads the engine will see on the track, without actually being there...

It's not uncommon for people to run X times, then get a "professional dyno tune" and SLOW DOWN.

Someone who knows how to tune for the track is always better than someone shooting for the highest dyno numbers.

[Tyler Wheat]

Sure, I can understand that. I know there are plenty that don't use the dyno so much as a tuning tool and more to just get a number. Seems silly.

I ask because I have recently been contemplating buying the stuff for an OBDI conversion and getting the software to datalog and tune. I'm really after datalogging and the ability to make small adjustments. I'm not necessarily as concerned with having the ability to do a full tune, but if my learning curve allows, I'd love to have the ability. I bought a couple of books and have only started reading one, which is for the beginner and covers more than just GM. The other is Banish's book and I've only skimmed it but it looks pretty intimidating.

[zooguy]

i went with the BR7EF plugs and the i guess i like them ... car has less than 20 min run time on them.

[1fstss]

i say add fuel because a little fuel will reduce detonation, and normally a small shot like that wont even wiggle anything remotely dangerous, ive never had to add fuel or had a detonation problem with a 150 shot. but i dont know how logging the car is a bad idea? at the 75 put the retard back to stock and do a quick run, if your ECU is picking something up then make the adjustment, i wouldnt just assume. and 3 degrees on a 75 shot is way too much. i know your smart gregrob but i would sure hope you can agree pulling any timing before 100 shot is way un-needed. and i do agree dyno tuning nitrous on a street motor is about useless... for the obvious reason that your robbing NA power while off the bottle, thats why i like my mallory box (adjust it when im going to spray) but on another aspect the air is different where you are, so that adds another variable. but where i am, and the multiple LT1 cars i have worked on if im being safe ill pull 1 degree for a 125 shot, 2 for a 150, but normally ive never had too. This isnt my car so the final decision is up to the owner, all i can do is share my experiences.

and tyler i personally know greg banish, hes a cool guy... mostly does mustang stuff but hes a cool guy to talk too... i met him through 2 mustang buddies tim barber and jim matzke.

[gregrob]

2 for a 150?

No we definitely do NOT agree.

[gregrob]

ive never had to add fuel or had a detonation problem with a 150 shot.

How do you know you've never had detonation? If your method of determining that is simply trusting the knock sensor, then you don't really know. You just assume you never have because the KS never picked it up.

These kits come jetted pig rich as it is, a lot of people *mistakenly* add fuel to slow the burn rate and reduce detonation, when they already have too damn much in the first place.

That is THE recipe for a blown ring land....

The correct way to do it is to pull timing, and pull fuel to where it needs to be, not add more fuel!

People who run nitrous setups super rich are on borrowed time and will never get an engine to live on a big shot...

Just because you have done it before and gotten away with it, doesn't make it right.

These very simple rules will help a nitrous engine run hard and be healthy, but this is really just scratching the surface:

Run very close to the same AFR on nitrous as you do N/A
Pull as much timing as you can without slowing down!
READ THE PLUGS!

[zooguy]

Run very close to the same AFR on nitrous as you do N/A
Pull as much timing as you can without slowing down!
READ THE PLUGS!


i have to agree ... it nice to put big numbers on the dyno ... but i could give two shits about big numbers i want to go fast.
if a dyno says i am at 400 hp and i am running sub 13's i put some timing back and lose 20hp but break in to the 12's then i will do that all day long

[Dangerous95lt1]

I run 65 nitrous 33 fuel with the nx shark nozzle at 34 degrees total timing and my car does have have been spraying every weekend at the track this year. Its your car tho bud do what u think is safe my afr is 12.1 btw

[1fstss]

i read the plugs... and they are always a nice golden brown :) and the tips arent all beat up and maybe your results differ from mine because of the air there compared to here... all i know is the way i do it works, and has for over 10 years, and on about 20 cars ive installed nitrous on, including imports. mustangs and camaros.

[gregrob]

"Nice and golden brown" is way too damn rich.

It's not my way vs your way. It's the right way or the wrong way.