Killing Myths about LT1's

[joelster]

I seem to come accross questionsa lot on every single board that is out there, so I figured i'd throw this up there for all to see. Mods feel free to edit or add to it as necessary. Maybe if we come up with a real good list, we could have it as a sticky to refer to for new guys.

1. Custom camshafts. Not needed at all with a bolt-on car. Yes, it is POSSIBLE that a particular custom grind might get 5 more hp out of your bolt-on car than the fabled CC306 or whatever, but it might make 5hp less too at the bottom end. When you start tearing into the motor, porting the heads, building that 383 or 396, then a custom cam becomes a viable option. Comp Cams, Crane Cams, etc, all know how to make a pretty darn good camshaft, no need to mess with sucess. I'll discuss nitrous on the next one.

2. Nitrous camshafts. Not needed at all if all you are going to do is spray a 150 shot. 150 is piddely, entry level stuff. When you are talking a 2-stage 200 out-of-the-hole with another 150 down the track, then YES, a nitrous camshaft is a must.

3. Hot Cam. Is an excellent camshaft for street/strip use. It is an older design for sure, but it works, and can be picked up real cheap. Springs for it are 40 bucks brand new too.

4. 10-bolt rear ends. Some can last a long time, some break with a stock M6 car on drag radials. Generally they last a little longer with auto cars, but if your car is running anywhere in the mid-12's or better, you'd better start planning/saving for an upgrade. Do not put money into a 10-bolt.

5. Stall converters. One of the best bang-for-the-buck options out there. Now, what is streetable to one person may not be streetable to the next person. I personally have run a "tight" 4000rpm stall on the street with no problem. I currently run a 5200rpm "loose" converter, and I will still cruise with it, BUT I WOULDN'T WANT IT IN A DD CAR, no way. I see these arguments all the time about guys asking about what Yank converter to get the 3600 or the 4000, get the bigger one.

6. Drag radials. I'll discuss 3 of the major brands because I have experience with them. Nitto's, BFG's and M/T's. As far as traction goes, M/T's are superior with the BFG's not too far behind, the Nitto's a distant third. As far as tread life, lol, well, it's just the opposite. You'll probably get a whole season out of the Nitto's, not too bad with the BFG's an the M/T's will have to be checked closely every month or so. Now, this next sentence should be very important to guys who DD their cars. Don't even think about getting M/T's if you drive on the highway, and might encounter rain here and there. They are flat-out dangerous, the BFG's suck in the rain too, but not as bad. The Nitto's can be run in the rain no problem. Noone wants to see your car in the guard rail.

7. Headers. Get long tubes, ceramic coated. The painted ones will be rust-brown in a matter of days and look like ass. Pacesetter makes a good header for a reasonable price. Shorties are just as hard to install and make less power, so go long tube.

8. Gasoline. Always run the highest octane you can find in your car. Always. If you wimp out and put a tank of 87 in it, chances are it WILL detonate (knock) and the computer will pull timing (ie: lose power). You won't hear the knock, but your knock sensor will. Now the bad part, is that your computer will continue to have the timing pulled even after you top it off with 93. It stores previous run data, and it takes a while for it to adapt.

9. Free-mods. Do them if you can, geez. TB bypass, gut the cat, prell shampoo cap in the intake elbow, etc...They are all proven to work and can be found on shbox.com

10. Get your car tuned, even if it just has a few bolt-ons. From the factory they run rich. If you plug a wide-band Air/Fuel ratio sensor into a stock car and run it hard, at WOT (wide open throttle) it will dip down to around 11.8-1. What that means is 11.8 parts of air to 1 part of fuel. IDEALLY you want an N/A car to be right around 13-1 at WOT. Anywhere from 12.8-1 to 13-1 is excellent, just don't go over 13-1. This is hp and MILEAGE here when you hit that ratio. Your car will make more power and use less gasoline to do so. A mail-order tune will get you right there, a dyno tune will be even better.

[roadrocket]

Excellent post.

On #4 It is true some 10 bolts won't hold up long past 350 rwhp or continued abuse. There are ways of stiffining up that 10 bolt. Welding the Axel Tubes, T/A cover with the proper 5lbs torque, and syn fluid, and be mindful that it's a weak link when you race. I've abused mine 15+ yrs, Knock on wood.
But, even with me it's a matter of time before I'll need to upgrade.

Good advice!

[joelster]

11. Gears for your car. If you run a 4-speed auto, you will want 3.73's. If you run a M6 car you will want 4.10's. There are certain exceptions to this rule, such as if you commute on the highway A LOT at higher speeds (70+) then you might want to step it up to a slightly lower numerical gear. In that case 3.42's for an auto, or 3.73's for the M6 car will suffice. If you take your car to the track each of these choices will allow your car to reach trap speeds of around 120ish without going into 4th on the auto's or 5th on the M6's, which should be plenty. Either way, if you trap around 120 you don't want a 10-bolt in your car.

[BoostedZ28]

12. Forced Induction vs. Nitrous - Both will obviously wake an LT-1 up, but the stock lt-1 motor will live a lot longer by feeding it nitrous rather than boost. That is, providing you incorporate all the important safety devices if you choose to spray the motor. The general consensus is that a stock LT-1, that is is good condition, can handle up to a 150hp kit.

The cast pistons and relatively high compression ratio that are a part of a stock LT-1 seriously limit the amount of boost one can safely use. Intercooling and/or alcohol/water injection is highly recommended and will help to extend the life of a stock LT-1 when using a forced induction system. Experience will tell you that 6-8lbs. of intercooled boost is about all a stock LT-1 will handle...even with that, it's highly recommened to start saving for quality, boost friendly engine parts.

[MEAN LT1]

13.Everything is not the Opti-sparks fault. Do the simple stuff first then work your way to the distributor. Unless you know for a fact what it is. '

14. Get a plug and scan program of some sort. You wont know what the car is doing unless you can see what the pcm is seeing. I advise going to akm cables for your year specific aldl plug and for obd1 cars I would use datamaster for the program.

15. Putting an LS1 into a LT1 body style is a federal offence.

[JoeliusZ28]

Excellent post.

On #4 It is true some 10 bolts won't hold up long past 350 rwhp or continued abuse. There are ways of stiffining up that 10 bolt. Welding the Axel Tubes, T/A cover with the proper 5lbs torque, and syn fluid, and be mindful that it's a weak link when you race. I've abused mine 15+ yrs, Knock on wood.
But, even with me it's a matter of time before I'll need to upgrade.

Good advice!
Here is one of the best ways i have seen to strengthen a 10 bolt. And its cheap with the right tools.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486663

[AChotrod]

That link is true! But it wont last forever and youll be worried about getting home every time your at the track. I did a very similar set up without the axels and it lived longer than the motor running 11.2@ 120mph in the 1/4 but this time i went with a S60

[Fastbird]

7. Headers. Get long tubes, ceramic coated. The painted ones will be rust-brown in a matter of days and look like ass. Pacesetter makes a good header for a reasonable price. Shorties are just as hard to install and make less power, so go long tube.

I have issues with this one. Tell the guys making great power on MAC's (1 5/8 mids), SLP's (1 3/4 shorties), Arizona Speed and Marine or RK Sport (1 3/4 Mids), or Edlebrock TES (1 5/8 Mids) headers that they're not worth it.

Case in point. Anyone remember the name Baxter? 30th SS, uber fast? If memory serves me, he didn't swap from Arizona Speed and Marine to Hooker LT's until we was WELL above the power levels that 90% of us only dream about.

Don't get me wrong, Long Tubes have their place. But for the setups that most people run, is the extra 5 HP on top worth the reduced ground clearance? I won't even get into the emissions legality aspect.

[KissMyWhtSS]

Moved to LTx Section. General Tech is for other engines.

Some good points. :)

[ksmyss]

I have issues with this one. Tell the guys making great power on MAC's (1 5/8 mids), SLP's (1 3/4 shorties), Arizona Speed and Marine or RK Sport (1 3/4 Mids), or Edlebrock TES (1 5/8 Mids) headers that they're not worth it.

Case in point. Anyone remember the name Baxter? 30th SS, uber fast? If memory serves me, he didn't swap from Arizona Speed and Marine to Hooker LT's until we was WELL above the power levels that 90% of us only dream about.

Don't get me wrong, Long Tubes have their place. But for the setups that most people run, is the extra 5 HP on top worth the reduced ground clearance? I won't even get into the emissions legality aspect.bingo. i have seen in person the slight gain from switching to flp long tubes from edlbrock shorties. it was 3 hp and about the same torque.

gmhp or hot rod tested a bunch of headers and it turned out the midlenghts were right inline but 2-3 hp behind the long tubes with the same sized tubes.

13. i completely agree. infact i bet there are a ton of perfectly good optis out there that got tossed. on the 95-97 style that are completly sealed i don't see any way in hell how water can get inside of them.

case in point: i got my car in 1998, it had 15k on it and i washed the engine with a power washer 5-6 times a year till 2001-2002. from then on i would hose off the engine and spray it down with simple green then hose it off again almost everytime i washed the car. only thing i would cover was the airfilter since it sat right on top of the engine. i also had the water pump go out and pulled it 2 other times for a cam swap and electric water pump. now the car has 95k on it and still running the original opti. i also have run an accel 300+ box and mallory box for 90% of the time i have owned it.


16. 58 mm tb. if you are going to buy a bigger tb buy the big one. on multi port fuel injection motors it doesnt matter what size tb you use. the engine will only take in as much air as it needs. on carb motors its a whole different story since they directly effect the amount of fuel and the air/fuel mixture.

[JoeliusZ28]

Don't get me wrong, Long Tubes have their place. But for the setups that most people run, is the extra 5 HP on top worth the reduced ground clearance? I won't even get into the emissions legality aspect.
ive had longtubes for 3 years now and i havent hit ANYTHING. I even cleared a floor hoist with them.

Ill take the 5hp kthx.

[KissMyWhtSS]

ive had longtubes for 3 years now and i havent hit ANYTHING. I even cleared a floor hoist with them.

Ill take the 5hp kthx.You also drive a 4x4 :tt2:

[JoeliusZ28]

I disagree. LT1 springs sat lower than every other 4th gen. LS1s and V6s are the 4x4s.

[joelster]

I've never hit anything with my long-tubes. You guys say "is it worth the extra 3-4hp", well it is EXTRA HP, duh! I was simply making the point that they are just as hard to install, so why not go get the long tubes. At mid-level power (300rwhp) i'm sure shorties are fine, but if you plan on going crazier with your set up, the long tubes will not become a hinderance like the shorties MAY become. If you ever plan on running true duals dumped before the axle you will need some custom fabbed tubes if you run shorties. If you run long tubes the setup is much easier to do.

[JoeliusZ28]

If you run long tubes the setup is much easier to do.
very true statement.

[KissMyWhtSS]

I disagree. LT1 springs sat lower than every other 4th gen. LS1s and V6s are the 4x4s.
Go measure your fender gap and compare it to your DD (on 16's)

[Z28pr0jekt]

problem with this is, our cars are up to 15yrs old now... my car looks as if it is lowered but it is on stock springs that have lost their retention rate

[JoeliusZ28]

Go measure your fender gap and compare it to your DD (on 16's)
I will when i go home just for you. But i already parked them DIRECTLY next to each other and the rear spoiler on my v6 looked a good inch higher.

[Fastbird]

I've never hit anything with my long-tubes. You guys say "is it worth the extra 3-4hp", well it is EXTRA HP, duh! I was simply making the point that they are just as hard to install, so why not go get the long tubes. At mid-level power (300rwhp) i'm sure shorties are fine, but if you plan on going crazier with your set up, the long tubes will not become a hinderance like the shorties MAY become. If you ever plan on running true duals dumped before the axle you will need some custom fabbed tubes if you run shorties. If you run long tubes the setup is much easier to do.

Head/cam pacakges, the good headers I listed won't be a hinderance. YOu need to move to a big shot or FI to even think about them falling short. Long tubes have their place, but people bandwagon them WAY too much.

[JoeliusZ28]

I wouldnt call it a bandwagon at all, there is a proven reason to run longtubes. I also dont see a single benefit of using shorties unless you are concerned about legality. I really dont understand why people complain about clearance. I lost maybe an inch and a half at most in a place that is unlikely to scrape anyway (unless your tackling some rediculous speed bumps) Ive scraped my air dam a good 50 times and my headers, never. I wouldnt even be worried if my car was lowered.

Here's my clearance: (please excuse the shitty y-pipe, i have made a new one since these pics were taken)
http://www.joeldevriendt.com/files/public/automotive/95_camaro/exhaust/IMG_4910.JPG
http://www.joeldevriendt.com/files/public/automotive/95_camaro/exhaust/IMG_4907.JPG (http://www.joeldevriendt.com/files/public/automotive/95_camaro/exhaust/IMG_4907.JPG)

[solga 511]

Oh boy, I knew this was coming as soon as I seen #7. :rolleyes: While I agree with both sides of this debate on exhaust, I would have to say that to each is his own ( or her own ;) ). For the people running F-bodies who have the cash, I would say yeah, go for the long tubes. But don't forget that you will need either O2 sim's or o2 extensions. But if you don't have the extra cash and you are not going to the extremes with your engine shorties are not THAT restrictive. Anything is better than the stock manifolds, and yes that includes shorties too !!b I am not sure where it is, but I have seen a chart somewhere that shows you will see a lot bigger improvement between stock manifolds and shorties than you will between shorties and long tubes. If I am not mistaken, this test was with a few different manufacturer's products as well.
For those of you who have never seen this article, check it out. There are plenty more out there just like this on, and any true exhaust expert (which I am NOT) will tell you pretty close to the same thing.

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/tech_get_technical.php

[JoeliusZ28]

I am not sure where it is, but I have seen a chart somewhere that shows you will see a lot bigger improvement between stock manifolds and shorties than you will between shorties and long tubes.
there is a very good reason for that and its because the stock manifolds SUCK!

its also a reason LT1s get a bad rap against LS1s in "stock vs stock" races. Headers do a lot more for LT1s than LS1s, period. newer LS1s have shorty manifolds from the factory!

[Brandon]

I'd like to be the first to say that the opti isn't as bad as a lot of people make it out to be...I know of somebody that got 305k miles out of a stock opti.


Oh boy, I knew this was coming as soon as I seen #4. :rolleyes: While I agree with both sides of this debate on exhaust, I would have to say that to each is his own ( or her own ;) ). For the people running F-bodies who have the cash, I would say yeah, go for the long tubes. But don't forget that you will need either O2 sim's or o2 extensions.
o2 sims are for after cat o2 sensors. you cant put o2 sims in your headers. and yes you will need extensions.

[solga 511]

there is a very good reason for that and its because the stock manifolds SUCK!

Agree 100%. I also agree with the fact that if you are going to be putting headers on a F-body you might as well go all out and put on the long tubes ! However, I was just trying to make a point that shorties are not as evil :devil: as a whole lot of people make them out to be, and for the $$ you can save on buying a used set of shorties, the cost conscious person might be better off going that direction.


you cant put o2 sensors in your headers. and yes you will need extensions.

Oh really ? :doh: I wasn't aware of that. lol :whistle:
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p295/hyperzone/PICT0541bright.jpg
http://www.joeldevriendt.com/files/public/automotive/95_camaro/exhaust/IMG_4910.JPG
But thanks for the heads up on the sims.;)

[Brandon]

Agree 100%. I also agree with the fact that if you are going to be putting headers on a F-body you might as well go all out and put on the long tubes ! However, I was just trying to make a point that shorties are not as evil :devil: as a whole lot of people make them out to be, and for the $$ you can save on buying a used set of shorties, the cost conscious person might be better off going that direction.



Oh really ? :doh: I wasn't aware of that. lol :whistle:


But thanks for the heads up on the sims.;)when I saw those pics I thought "what is he trying to show me?" then i went back and read my post. my bad on the typo. its fixed now.:doh:

[solga 511]

No problem man, I'm just in one of those moods tonight. :cheers: Sorry if I came across as a smart ass.:D

[ksmyss]

heat soak with the stock ss airbox - not even close. the air moves through the intake system, no matter what it is, that it doesn't have time to heat up. at idle the iat sees slightly higher temps but even just a slight crack in the throttle the temps are the same as the outside air temp. we have scanned my car atleast 100 times and going through valleys that had temp changes you could watch it change on the scan.

[KissMyWhtSS]

Joel - I've hit my intermediate pipe on speed bumps twice. I can guarantee you if I ran a offroad y pipe it would hit, a lot.

[Z28pr0jekt]

Joel - I've hit my intermediate pipe on speed bumps twice. I can guarantee you if I ran a offroad y pipe it would hit, a lot.

I have never hit my y pipe on anything. I have scraped my headers a bit but that is because my springs have crap for retention rate left and the speed bumps in florida suck

[JoeliusZ28]

Joel - I've hit my intermediate pipe on speed bumps twice. I can guarantee you if I ran a offroad y pipe it would hit, a lot.
I have an offroad pipe and the lowest part of my exhaust is still the intermediate pipe where my cutout is.

[MEAN LT1]

I'd like to be the first to say that the opti isn't as bad as a lot of people make it out to be...I know of somebody that got 305k miles out of a stock opti.

See post #5 page1 ;)

[Camaro_94]

I still have very good ground clearence with my Formula.. ;)

I've never scraped the headers/Ypipe/exhast on anything before. I just gotta take it slow over the bumps, but other than that, its awesome..

- Mike

[bidicamaro]

Here is one of the best ways i have seen to strengthen a 10 bolt. And its cheap with the right tools.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486663

I read the write up and it was like german to me. I've never had to think of this stuff... dang drag axles and stuff... Why can't I just get a full floater and throw under there? :shame::metal::cool:

[hempkat94z]

All of this talk on headers is crazy. It is all opinion. I have ridden in shorty headers cars that hit the exhaust on every little bump out there and the same for Long Tubes. I have long tubes on my car cause that is what I wanted. If one has better hp results which may only be 3-5 hp then why not get those. This is a hp game 3-5 more is better then 3-5 less...RIGHT Oh and by the way since I put my xpipe in I have had absolutely NO problems with draging or hitting my exhaust anywhere. Nor have I ever hit the Headers period. JMO

[BLOWNDFIZ]

I think we can all agree that any headers are better than no headers. Maybe that is how we should leave it.:peace2:

This is coming from a guy that has 1 of each - Hooker Long Tubes on the 94, Edelbrock shorties on the 95. Hell plug access for me and any performance gain is worth it to get rid of the stock manifolds.

[YZF]

Im lowered and still havent drug my headers anywhere. I thought I was going to rip off my catback once pulling into a parking garage (it brought the car to a hault :( ) but I can clear the curbs getting in driveways and stuff, just go slow!

[hempkat94z]

I think we can all agree that any headers are better than no headers. Maybe that is how we should leave it.:peace2:

This is coming from a guy that has 1 of each - Hooker Long Tubes on the 94, Edelbrock shorties on the 95. Hell plug access for me and any performance gain is worth it to get rid of the stock manifolds.

AMEN

[bricez28]

ive hit my y pipe and muffler alot. but, my exhaust setup is pacesetters, ory, bullt dumped. the muffler sits low casue there are no hangers. the only thing holding my exhaust up is my headers lol.

[chevy42083]

might wanna fix that ;)

[JoeliusZ28]

if you dont have exhaust hangers you shouldnt be wondering about ground clearance problems ;)

[brucealmighty744]

bump I want to hear more great tips! how about some views on how much things REALLY cost. For instance...I want to cam my car...well the cam is only $350...cool...I am only having to spend $350...if only. Include things from personal experience and how much other parts and labor cost. Thanks

[solga 511]

bump I want to hear more great tips! how about some views on how much things REALLY cost. For instance...I want to cam my car...well the cam is only $350...cool...I am only having to spend $350...if only. Include things from personal experience and how much other parts and labor cost. Thanks


Labor, for most like myself, is free as long as you do all the work yourself. As far as what a shop charges .... no clue, I don't use them. I understand what you are talking about though. A cam swap costs A LOT more than just the price of the cam. Several things can and will come up especially when there are some miles on the car; gaskets are a big one, springs for the new cam, tools (valve spring compressor, air hose attatchment for the spark plug hole, cam handle) for doing the job if you do it yourself, etc. The cam handle isn't necessary but it does come in handy when the engine is out of the car. Then you have all of the other things that you might as well change while things are apart like (depending on milage) water pump, plugs, wires, oil change (at least 2). I am probably forgetting some things but I'm sure someone else will chime in.

[joelster]

bump I want to hear more great tips! how about some views on how much things REALLY cost. For instance...I want to cam my car...well the cam is only $350...cool...I am only having to spend $350...if only. Include things from personal experience and how much other parts and labor cost. Thanks

To be honest, if you can do all of the labor, a cam swap is pretty cheap. That is assuming you have all the tools you need. A puller, a spring compressor, etc. It is ALWAYS recommended that you change springs though, so that is a "hidden" cost. The only extras that you WILL need is a small gasket kit. When I put my 503 in, way back when, I got a partial gasket kit at my local machine shop for around 30 bucks. It had timing cover gasket, water pump gaskets, and timing cover seals. Maybe one more, if i am forgetting. You can reuse the valve cover gaskets, and the oil pan gasket. You will also need a $5 tube of good rtv.

You DO NOT need that spark plug air compressor tool. I did mine without even taking a plug out. You simply attach a breaker bar to the balancer bolt and turn the motor over until the piston makes contact with the valve. Then you keep slowly turning it over until you get the piston at TDC. The valve will be sufficiently high enough to swap the springs. NO THE VALVE WILL NOT FALL INTO THE CHAMBER IF THE PISTON IS AT BDC and you remove the spring/retainer. A 350 has a stroke of 3.48", and the valve is roughly 5" with the chamber being less than an inch (about 3/4"). NO YOU WILL NOT DAMAGE THE VALVE by having the piston pushing up on it. The materials are just a leeeetle more durable than the 1/10 of one rpm you will be turning the motor over at.

[ksmyss]

don't forget roller rockers, coolant, lifters and pushrods (if your gona tear it all apart you might as well do it right), tuning.

[Green96Z]

You DO NOT need that spark plug air compressor tool. I did mine without even taking a plug out. You simply attach a breaker bar to the balancer bolt and turn the motor over until the piston makes contact with the valve. Then you keep slowly turning it over until you get the piston at TDC. The valve will be sufficiently high enough to swap the springs.

I'm not so sure I like the sound of that procedure. Even with the piston at TDC, once the locks are out the valves can fall on the piston face. I don't think I would want to take the risk of nicking the piston or the valve. Just my $0.02.

[joelster]

I'm not so sure I like the sound of that procedure. Even with the piston at TDC, once the locks are out the valves can fall on the piston face. I don't think I would want to take the risk of nicking the piston or the valve. Just my $0.02.

The valve won't "fall". If it does "fall" then your valve guides are totally worn out, and NEED to be replaced. When you take the springs off, the valve will just sit there, or very very gradually start to go down. You will not nick anything, you have to understand just how slow everything is going as you are turning the motor over by hand. No damage will occur.

[solga 511]

You know, I understand that the air fitting is not "NEEDED," but why rotate the crackshaft a million (Yes, that is an exaggeration) times when it is completely unnecessary ? I would much rather do it my way and thread in an air extension, then having to go through the extra BS turning the crank. Then again, I am also the type of person to get the good spring compressers instead of the junk Autozone lever types too. A friend of mine insisted on buying his own tools instead of using mine, that way he would have them for later, and he went the cheap route. He found out that he should have either used mine or bought the better kind when his AZ spring compresser blew apart after the 5th valve spring.:rolleyes:
To each his own though and I understand that you are just providing additional information on a different way to "skin the cat".
Back when I had my '95 Z28 (about 8 years ago) I did the LT4 Hotcam swap. and although I bought the cam for $175 that was not the end of the story.
Cam $175
Lifters $0 Reused the 42,000 mile stockers
Springs, locks, retainers $100
Gasket kit $40
Antifreeze $15
Oil & filters $55 (2 changes, Mobil 1 for both)
Copper RTV $10
Correct tools for the job $60
Mail order tune $125

Granted, some of these figures can be cut down or even eliminated but this is the route that I decided to go. So if my addition is right, that is just short of $600 and this is not counting the cost for the Crane roller rockers that I put on as well.

YMMV,

[97HawkLT1]

Just to throw in my header story......I had SLP shorties (stock y-pipe and SLP TOTL exhaust) and installed a hotcam and supporting valvetrain (stock heads, injectors, TB, etc). I then had the car dyno tuned and reached 300 rwhp through an A4. But for several months after, I had issues with the headers staying bolted down tight enough and I found a good deal on pacesetter longtubes and an ORY. So I purchased and installed. Changed nothing else including the tune. When I had it dynoed, I was amazed to find that I had picked up 40 rwhp and about the same in tq. I haven't had any issues with ground clearance, even on Florida's crappy roads. So I would always recommend longtubes unless there was an issue of emissions. 3-5 hp difference maybe on a stock car but with any kind of bolt-ons or even a mild cam like the hotcam, longtubes ARE the way to go.

[chevy42083]

FORTY Horsepower? At the wheels at that. Wow.

[ksmyss]

Just to throw in my header story......I had SLP shorties (stock y-pipe and SLP TOTL exhaust) and installed a hotcam and supporting valvetrain (stock heads, injectors, TB, etc). I then had the car dyno tuned and reached 300 rwhp through an A4. But for several months after, I had issues with the headers staying bolted down tight enough and I found a good deal on pacesetter longtubes and an ORY. So I purchased and installed. Changed nothing else including the tune. When I had it dynoed, I was amazed to find that I had picked up 40 rwhp and about the same in tq. I haven't had any issues with ground clearance, even on Florida's crappy roads. So I would always recommend longtubes unless there was an issue of emissions. 3-5 hp difference maybe on a stock car but with any kind of bolt-ons or even a mild cam like the hotcam, longtubes ARE the way to go.
the 96-97 dual cat style headers are a joke and i don't think they are any better than the stock manifolds. the stock dual cat y-pipe is even more of a joke. no wonder you picked up hp.

i bet you would have seen the same hp increase going with the 93-95 style midlenghts and offraod y-pipe.

[solga 511]

Just to throw in my header story......I had SLP shorties (stock y-pipe and SLP TOTL exhaust) and installed a hotcam and supporting valvetrain (stock heads, injectors, TB, etc). I then had the car dyno tuned and reached 300 rwhp through an A4. But for several months after, I had issues with the headers staying bolted down tight enough and I found a good deal on pacesetter longtubes and an ORY. So I purchased and installed. Changed nothing else including the tune. When I had it dynoed, I was amazed to find that I had picked up 40 rwhp and about the same in tq. I haven't had any issues with ground clearance, even on Florida's crappy roads. So I would always recommend longtubes unless there was an issue of emissions. 3-5 hp difference maybe on a stock car but with any kind of bolt-ons or even a mild cam like the hotcam, longtubes ARE the way to go.

:laugh: Sorry man but I think I'm gonna call you out on this one. 40 hp to the wheels ? You do still have the dyno sheets right ? Care to scan them ? I'll fully appologize when I see them, but I think that is a little off. This was on the same dyno, same operator, same everything (except for time, several months) right ?

[brucealmighty744]

40 hp does seem a tad high, but stranger things have happened.

[Green96Z]

The valve won't "fall". If it does "fall" then your valve guides are totally worn out, and NEED to be replaced. When you take the springs off, the valve will just sit there, or very very gradually start to go down. You will not nick anything, you have to understand just how slow everything is going as you are turning the motor over by hand. No damage will occur.

Ok, I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly when I posted that. :whistle:

With the spark plug in there should be enough compression to hold the valves up. I guess I'm just the kind of guy that doesn't like to take any more chances than I have to, especially when it comes to my car. :D

[joelster]

You know, I understand that the air fitting is not "NEEDED," but why rotate the crackshaft a million (Yes, that is an exaggeration) times when it is completely unnecessary ? ,

One of the reasons why I went this route when changing my stock cam to the 503 was that the plug access to cylinders 6 and 8 is insanely tight. I hope you don't still have your a/c when you try to put that air fitting into the plug hole! Good luck feeding the line into there too! The driver side isn't so bad, but the passenger side is a bitch. My way of changing springs shaves about an hour off of the jobs total time, easy.

[solga 511]

40 hp does seem a tad high, but stranger things have happened.

Yes they have. I just think that there may be a little bit more of a change than "Just headers" being it as weather, different dyno operator, dyno settings, etc. Plus I think that there is a lot more than 3 -5 hp difference between a stock and and engine with just shorties. Maybe I just misunderstood that part though.

I will add though, that I do agree with 97HawkLT1 on the part that if your going to get them you might as well get the long tube headers. But if you are pinched on $$ (Lord knows I am right now) shorties are not evil at all. (This has been discussed in another thread also.)


I guess I'm just the kind of guy that doesn't like to take any more chances than I have to, especially when it comes to my car. :D

X2 !!! :peace2:


One of the reasons why I went this route when changing my stock cam to the 503 was that the plug access to cylinders 6 and 8 is insanely tight. I hope you don't still have your a/c when you try to put that air fitting into the plug hole! Good luck feeding the line into there too!

I will not argue that point at all. Plug access is very restrictive, but not impossible to get to ...... on a F-body. ;) (My 9C1 isn't all that bad) Let's not forget, this is a LTX site not just another F-body site. :tt2: Anyway, I did do it with the air fitting on my Z28 and it was somewhat of a PITA but far from out of reach. After all, we do have to change our plugs from time to time. lol End point being: Obviously both ways will work just fine as long as you take your time and pay attention to the little things.

Good day,

[joelster]

I will not argue that point at all. Plug access is very restrictive, but not impossible to get to ...... on a F-body. ;) (My 9C1 isn't all that bad) Let's not forget, this is a LTX site not just another F-body site. :tt2: Anyway, I did do it with the air fitting on my Z28 and it was somewhat of a PITA but far from out of reach. After all, we do have to change our plugs from time to time. lol End point being: Obviously both ways will work just fine as long as you take your time and pay attention to the little things.

Good day,

My bad, lol! I love the Caprices too!

[JoeliusZ28]

Im with Joelster, id much rather do the top-dead-center method than mess with getting an air compressor in there.

[solga 511]

;) I'm done trying to convince you guys,lol. :D

[JoeliusZ28]

to each their own, no wrong way :)

[solga 511]

to each their own, no wrong way :)

Just givin' you all a hard time. :balloon: Oh and I'd say that there are definately some wrong ways out there ! I think these 2 styles are the best though. toe-may-toe : toe-mah-toe :jest:

[YZF]

Moar info! What kind of gains can an elec. waterpump get you? What's the reasoning in why a 10 bolt is less restrictive than a 9" or an S60? Post up some good 411! I'm somewhat new to the FBody thing (like 9 or 10 months) so I'm still learning myself time to time.

[joelster]

Moar info! What kind of gains can an elec. waterpump get you? What's the reasoning in why a 10 bolt is less restrictive than a 9" or an S60? Post up some good 411! I'm somewhat new to the FBody thing (like 9 or 10 months) so I'm still learning myself time to time.

Electric water pump on a stock motor--3-4hp, more on a modified motor.
10-bolt is less restrictive than a 9" or an S60 simply because of the reciprocating mass inside. It has a small posi unit, tiny axles, etc..that's why it only weighs a buck-60. Also keep in mind that when people do back-to-back dyno tests of their 10-bolts vs whatever new rearend they get, their 10-bolts have some serious mileage on them. When we took my 10-bolt out, you could literally spin each side with your bare hand. All of the bearings were worn in, so was the ring and pinion. When you get a new rearend everything is really tight, and that robs power a little bit.

[ksmyss]

Moar info! What kind of gains can an elec. waterpump get you?i picked up a constant tenth and 1-1.5 mph. i was going to the track almost every weekend at the time too.

[97HawkLT1]

:laugh: Sorry man but I think I'm gonna call you out on this one. 40 hp to the wheels ? You do still have the dyno sheets right ? Care to scan them ? I'll fully appologize when I see them, but I think that is a little off. This was on the same dyno, same operator, same everything (except for time, several months) right ?

The after dyno sheet is posted on my fquick page (run 002 (run 004 is after M6 swap)). I will try to find the shorties sheet and scan it in. And when I said 3-5 HP, I was referring to what somebody else had posted earlier in this thread about there only being a 3-5 HP difference between shorties/mids and longtubes.

My guess is that the factory dual cat Y-pipe and it's undersized tubing as well as the poor design of the SLP shorties were the reasons for the large gain. That is why I posted my story so others wouldn't make the poor decision I did by purchasing shorties. Waste of time and money, in my experience.

[camarobird92]

My reason to swap to an EWP had very little to do with power gains. After pricing LT1 and LT4 timing chain sets, it seemed more beneficial to run a double roller from a standard SBC and an EWP than to mess with the stock setup.

[JoeliusZ28]

Electric water pump on a stock motor--3-4hp, more on a modified motor.
10-bolt is less restrictive than a 9" or an S60 simply because of the reciprocating mass inside. It has a small posi unit, tiny axles, etc..that's why it only weighs a buck-60. Also keep in mind that when people do back-to-back dyno tests of their 10-bolts vs whatever new rearend they get, their 10-bolts have some serious mileage on them. When we took my 10-bolt out, you could literally spin each side with your bare hand. All of the bearings were worn in, so was the ring and pinion. When you get a new rearend everything is really tight, and that robs power a little bit.
thats not the entire answer. there are differences in where the pinion gear meets the ring the ring gear. A 10 bolt pinion meets the ring gear at nearly the center, whereas a 9" meets lower on the ring gear. The result is more surface area (stronger) but a little less leverage.

If i could draw a diagram right now i could explain it better.

[joelster]

thats not the entire answer. there are differences in where the pinion gear meets the ring the ring gear. A 10 bolt pinion meets the ring gear at nearly the center, whereas a 9" meets lower on the ring gear. The result is more surface area (stronger) but a little less leverage.

If i could draw a diagram right now i could explain it better.

I understand exactly what you are saying but it doesn't hold true for the Dana60. The Dana60 has the BEST pinion placement of them all, even better than a 10-bolt. So by this theory, it should dyno the highest right? It doesn't. It has some very beefy internals, that require some power to turn.

[JoeliusZ28]

i didnt/dont know anything about the S60 other than that its one bulky SOB lol.

[joelster]

i didnt/dont know anything about the S60 other than that its one bulky SOB lol.


It's a big piece of iron, no doubt. When I got mine (group buy), 6 of them showed up at the shop. 3 for LT1 cars and 3 for LS1 cars. The LS1 cars had their backing plates installed, and we weighed them all. The heaviest one was right around 235lbs. Mine was the lightest by far. It was 180-185, but it has a spool. A Dana 60 ring gear is 9.75" tall, ford 9" is, well um 9", a 12-bolt is 8.75", and the 10-bolt (4th gen) is 7.5".

[solga 511]

The after dyno sheet is posted on my fquick page (run 002 (run 004 is after M6 swap)). I will try to find the shorties sheet and scan it in. And when I said 3-5 HP, I was referring to what somebody else had posted earlier in this thread about there only being a 3-5 HP difference between shorties/mids and longtubes.

My guess is that the factory dual cat Y-pipe and it's undersized tubing as well as the poor design of the SLP shorties were the reasons for the large gain. That is why I posted my story so others wouldn't make the poor decision I did by purchasing shorties. Waste of time and money, in my experience.

Ok, I guess this is in order. :embarassed: My appologies (I'm Sorry) for my previous statement and any harsh tone that may have been perceived from it. I think I misunderstood a couple different things in it as well. I thought you were trying to say that ALL shorties are junk and not worth anything over stock manifolds. Like I said before, I agree with you on getting long tubes, but some times it's just not a choice or as cheap. (Like with some people doing swaps) Anyhow.....sorry.

[97HawkLT1]

Ok, I guess this is in order. :embarassed: My appologies (I'm Sorry) for my previous statement and any harsh tone that may have been perceived from it. I think I misunderstood a couple different things in it as well. I thought you were trying to say that ALL shorties are junk and not worth anything over stock manifolds. Like I said before, I agree with you on getting long tubes, but some times it's just not a choice or as cheap. (Like with some people doing swaps) Anyhow.....sorry.

No need to apologize...I was just trying to answer the call-out. I have posted two new pics to the "documentation" album on my fquick page. One is the after pacesetter (without the M6 swap on there) and the other is with the shorties. I couldn't find the sheet that I had done at the same place as the later one but I did have the one of the initial tuning at a different dyno with the SLP shorties. Not the best comparison but it will have to do. I was amazed and happy at how much was freed up over the SLP shorties and stock y-pipe/cats. And I agree there are definetly situations that call for shorties or mids. Luckily my stiuation wasn't one of them :D