Pick out a cam for my S/C for me!

[QC97Z]

Hey guys-

I just bought an F1A procharger kit with FMIC from a guy on LS1tech. He sold it for a turbo kit...ended up buying the whole car. Long story short, I'm buying the fresh forged 383 (~2000 miles) that came out of that turbo car...but with no cam (was turbo specific).
I need some specs on a good cam for this setup. I'll probably start with 8psi and go up from there. Here's the specs on the motor:

383 shortblock -------
splayed 4-bolt caps
ARP main studs
Eagle forged crank
Eagle forged H-beam rods (6.0")
JE/SRP -31cc forged pistons
AFR 210 heads w/competition porting
Edelbrock LT4 "air gap" intake manifold
LS7 lifters
Harlan Sharp 1.6 roller rockers
ARP headbolts
chromoly pushrods

Milodon oil pan
60# injectors
58mm throttle body
stock clearanced valvecovers
Meziere HD EWP, 160 degree Hypertech stat

Suggestions? I'll be shipping the cam to him, he's going to install it for me so I receive a ready-to-rock motor!

[CALL911]

Cam selection really depends on what you want. Some grinds will give peak power, but not be as efficient at making boost. Others might be more tame and not put down peak power but are very driver friendly. It really depends on what you are looking for.

[QC97Z]

Cam selection really depends on what you want. Some grinds will give peak power, but not be as efficient at making boost. Others might be more tame and not put down peak power but are very driver friendly. It really depends on what you are looking for.

Pretty much looking for something that will give a bit of a messy idle, doesn't have to be super "driver friendly". This will be a pretty potent street car, and definitely NOT a daily driver. I'll be looking for as much power as possible, but not so much that it won't have ANY street manners.

[CALL911]

Well, sounds like you have the same desire I wanted in a cam then.

Mine is; 244/254 .578/.578 114 LSA

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/What-to-do-when-you-are_188393.htm

[QC97Z]

That thing sounds pretty nasty....Do you have any more videos of it, especially at idle?

[CALL911]

That thing sounds pretty nasty....Do you have any more videos of it, especially at idle?

Indeed I do... :devil:

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Battle-of-the-Z28s_187925.htm

Me vs Fastbirds Vette
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Z28-vs-Twin_169566.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Z28-vs-03_164737.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Thrashing-in-a-Z28_143115.htm

[Fire67]

Call 911, what are you running for heads/intake?

QC97Z, that thing is gonna need way more injector than a set of 60's. Even if you do manage to get it pulleyed down below 10psi...

[MoeHorsePower]

I had a very similar set up. I was running 12lbs, Cam was a custom grind. 230/244, 602/612 on a 114LSA. Made 648 RWHP 612 Tq on street gas and 722 RWHP 713 Tq on the Fast Gas...

[QC97Z]

Call 911, what are you running for heads/intake?

QC97Z, that thing is gonna need way more injector than a set of 60's. Even if you do manage to get it pulleyed down below 10psi...

Really? You think it'll need more than 60#? I'm getting the motor from a guy on LS1tech, the dang thing was turbo'd and has 60's on it! You're actually the first to tell me this.
The pulley that the F1A has on it right now should boost me about 8 psi, and will probably put me close to the 600 mark.

[Fire67]

I'll put it this way... The F1A is capable of well exceeding the fuel capabilities of those injectors. While they may be big enough for 600bhp (at crank), when you decide to really wring power outta that motor they will not be enough. For example: 650hp would put those injectors over an 80% Duty cycle. Only thing that would change that math is the rare instance were you might somehow get less than a .60bsfc outta the motor.

What Im saying is that you are not leaving yourself much of a margin for error in power estimation. You could live with being 50hp off, but any more and they simply will not be enough injector. That blower, and the engine combo listed should be capable of needing 85-95# injectors. Guess you just need to decide if 520-550rwhp will be enough for you when you have in the back of your mind that your setup is capable of putting down much more.

[CALL911]

The F1A is going to need more than 60# injectors if you plan on using more than 10#'s of boost (which would be pointless not to for the F1A).

I am running the stock LT1 intake (hand ported), and AFR 180 heads (fully ported by TPIS). Good setup for boost except for the cam I am running is rather large (which is great for power, and a killer idle, but not so much for boost). In the end, it is a great combo that I am very happy with given that it hooks up in 1st gear on the street with cold Nitto DR's.

[QC97Z]

Interesting comments, thanks for the good advice.
I e-mailed the guy I'm buying the motor from, hopefully I can get a few hundred bucks knocked off the price if he keeps the injectors. If he doesn't want them, and I get stuck with them...then I'll have to try and sell them. I'm already trying to sell some other stuff too with not much luck.
Does anyone know a common injector brand/size in the 90-ish pound range? (90-95)?
What other fuel system items would I need? The idea I had in mind was:

Racetronix 255 in-tank with harness
Voltage booster?
Aeromotive FPR for LT1's

Is there anything else I need? Do I need to modify fuel rails at all, fuel lines, anything like that?
I've never really done any fuel system upgrades this extensive, and definitely don't want to limit my setup in any way, unless I'm limiting it purposely.

[JasonShort]

Brett bought the setup from me :)

The 60#ers will be fine for starting off with 8-10psi.....or more accurately, the amount of cfm going through the 383 at that amount of boost. This 383 with 8psi would be moving a similar amount of air through it as a 355 with significanly more boost (depending on the heads/cam).

As mentioned though, you will definitely need more injector if you go up from there.....along with *at least* a pair of dual intank pumps. I would recommend dual intank pumps even for this motor with the least amount of boost possible from the F1A. This blower is capable of ALOT and it's just getting started where it's pulley'd to now :)

If you do decide to go to a larger injector, you do have a couple of constraints with the LT1 PCM setup. The only company that offers a high impedence injector larger than 60# is RC Engineering. You can buy 72#ers from them....though they are pricey at $700+. You could also run a low injector driver box (Acceleronics) which allows the LT1 PCM to utilize low impedence injectors. Either way, it's still going to be quite a bit of money going that route after purchasing injectors.

I'll have to check with RC though. They may offer a 82-84# high impedence injector. That would be a good choice.

Jason

[Fire67]

The only problem with the larger high impedance injectors is how sloppy they get at low rpm/low pulsewidth conditions. Alot of times, the PCM cannot open and close them fast enough to dial in a lean idle... High impedance, I wouldnt go much more than 72's based on my experiences.

AEM also makes an injector driver box that would work good for larger low impedance injectors. With the 60's, twin in-tank Walbro's are a must. As you may find yourself running out of pump with just one and those injectors flowing at full capacity.

Once you go any larger than 60's, the layout and plumbing of the stock fuel system will become a problem. The lines arent really large enough to keep the rails full when you have big injectors draining them. And the stock fuel routing through the rails will have one side being starved because the other side gets fed (and drained) first.

If you end up going to 80+ lb/hr injectors, you will need to step up to parallel plumbed rails, larger feed line, an external regulator (part of the parallel plumbing layout), and a BIG external fuel pump. This also means either a sumped stock or aftermaket tank, or an actual fuel cell.

Ive gone through the whole set it up one way, then want to go bigger and have to change it all. It gets EXTREMELY pricey and consumes alot of time. This is why I always prefer to set up a fuel system to be capable of supplying plenty of fuel for whatever the combo could max out at. Its better to have more than enough than to find out later that you dont have even close to enough.

[Fire67]

Does anyone know a common injector brand/size in the 90-ish pound range? (90-95)?
Racetronix for great prices on quality injectors. Go low impedance with an injector driver.

What other fuel system items would I need? The idea I had in mind was:

Racetronix 255 in-tank with harness
This will barely feed the 60's if it will at all. You will need Twin intank walbros to provide a safe volume of fuel to 60# injectors.
Voltage booster?
Dont waste time or money with a voltage booster.
Aeromotive FPR for LT1's
This will be fine for a setup running 60# injectors. Not for anything larger (see my previous post)


Is there anything else I need? Do I need to modify fuel rails at all, fuel lines, anything like that?
I've never really done any fuel system upgrades this extensive, and definitely don't want to limit my setup in any way, unless I'm limiting it purposely.

What worked for me with a D1sc on a 383 was this:
95# injectors (more than I needed)
Stock rails modified to accept AN fittings and plumbed in parallel
Aeromotive A-1000 style regulator
Aeromotive Eliminator pump
-10an from sumped stock tank to Eliminator pump
-8an Feed from pump to rails
-6an Return from regulator to tank

There are multiple ways to skin a cat, above was just the method I used after fighting with twin walbros and all the other related junk. Lol. I basically bought and built my fuel system twice, so the 2nd time around I went a little over kill with injectors and the pump :cool:

[JasonShort]

Justin, I agree with you. I ran the RC 72's for a while in one of my combinations and they worked great.

I've never had great success with big external pumps. Mostly, overheating problems....even with the Aeromotive pump controller running the pump at half speed while under normal cruising conditions. On the other hand, the most effective and reliable setup I've landed on is the dual intak pumps with a larger -an line directly feeding the fuel rails. From there, I run it through an Aeromotive regulator, then back to the tank with the stock feed line.

If it were my build, I would just run a dual intank setup with the stock fuel lines and 60# injectors to get it going with the "lower" 8-9psi of boost. That will be more than enough to feed the fuel requirements, provides a cost effective fuel system, doesn't overcomplicate the build, and provides enough fuel to learn how to "re-drive" the car with that much new-found power. 575-600rwhp is alot when you're used to driving 350rwhp :)

Jason

[JasonShort]

I totally agree with "overbuying" on parts so you don't have to buy twice. It's tough because some people have had a hard time getting the dual intank pumps to work and others have had a tough time with external setups.

[Fire67]

Thankfully, the only problem I ever had with the external pump was fuel slosh starving the pickup... Absolutely had to keep a 1/2 tank minimum, lol. Then again, with a th400 and 4500 stall I wasnt exactly cruising the car for very long, lol.

[QC97Z]

Good thoughts. I'm hoping I can hit close to the 600 mark with dual in-tanks and 60#'s on "stock" boost (8 psi-ish). As long as I'm not hitting above 85-90% duty cycle at WOT. When this thing gets dyno'ed, is the duty cycle/fuel system status monitored as well?

[QC97Z]

I did see that Larry is offering some sort of fuel system line kit, would that be beneficial to what we're talking about?
Sorry about any stupid questions I'm asking...I'm new to "performance" fuel systems. It's quite a journey I'm embarking on here.

[Fire67]

Fuel systems are definitely alot to figure out. And most of us end up doing some trial and error. But thats also why we are so willing to help others, it works out nicely that way...

Larry? Not sure who that is? Lonnies Performance does a nice dual in-tank setup though... It uses the stock lines.

[CALL911]

My advice is go with 2 in tank 255 lph pumps. Its the cheepest way to get a fuel pump system to support power up to 1000 RWHP, and its been done more than any other fuel pump setup out there by boosted f-body owners. It's simple, reliable and cost effective.

Like I said before, you will need more than 60# injectors if you are going with more than 10#'s of boost. If 600 RWHP is your goal, than I think 10#'s with the F1A and your setup will get you there (or at least close). The problem is I can almost garuntee that after you get beat a few times, or you realize that you have the potential of hundreds more HP at the wheels just by adding more boost, you will want to do that.

If this is the case, it would be smart for several reasons (cost being a big one) to do it right now, instead of spending the money again on another tune and all the hassle of putting everything together.

This idea is not without its flaws, as you know you will need larger injectors, and they are not cheep. Also, tuning on the stock PCM becomes difficult (its going to be fairly difficult even if you go with 60# injectors and a large cammed F1A boost combo). There are ways around this as well as you can upgrade the PCM to a FAST system, or better yet, just do an LS1 PCM conversion. Either upgraded PCM will allow a HIGHLY increased ability to tune your car.

It all depends on what you want.

600 RWHP now might seem perfect. But knowing you are capable of so much more with very little done would send most people craving for more boost/power.

[QC97Z]

True. Thanks for the info.
One main objective of my build is to be able to revert the car back to stock if needed, if I decide to get crazy enough to keep this thing a long time and sell it as original one day, or if I sell it and want to keep my performance drivetrain (keeping all of my factory drivetrain).
If I went to a FAST system or did an LS conversion, would I be able to revert back to stock, without much (if any) evidence of hacking/cutting/mutilating/modifying?

I'm more than game for switching it all up and building it right the first time, I just want to try to stay true to my plans and goals.

As far as "Larry" I meant Larry from Speed Inc. He has some sort of a fuel line kit.

[CALL911]

If you go with the FAST system, then expect some splicing and dicing of wires, and it would be damn hard to put it back to stock.

The LS1 PCM converstion is a plug and play kit with the adapters (how I understand it). So that you could easily put back to stock.

[Fire67]

The Ls1 PCM conversion can be had with a plug and play wiring harness. This way you can keep your stock stuff in-tact. Another great feature is that your stock gauges and such will work just as they're supposed to. No re-wiring or 'adapting' neccessary as it would be with the FAST system.

The FAST system is easier to tune, and more than capable of handling huge power numbers and ANY set of injectors.

The LS1 PCM conversion allows plug and play use, but is more time consuming to tune and will still require and injector driver box to use low impedance injectors. This route is also a little more expensive initially than the FAST system, but you will not have to modify anything beyond the point of returning to stock.

I have installed and tuned both systems in these cars, and can help with any questions you may have regarding them.

[QC97Z]

I read a bit about converting to LS1 PCM (did a google search and read some forum posts) and all I can find is converting to EFI connection's LT1 setup.
I've already bought and modified an MSD pro-billet opti and have 8.5 MSD wires NIB.
If I go to the LS1 pcm, do I have to use the EFI connection setup? Or is it as simple as a harness change?

[cls-chicago]

what is the price of a fast setup?

[Fire67]

QC97Z- The EFIConnection setup is what allows you to run the Ls1 pcm. You will have coil near plug ignition and no opti-spark if you go that route. Basically, the front cover needs to come off the motor and parts installed to the crank and cam. Then the cover goes back on with a crank sensor and EFI connections opti-delete cam sensor setup. It is definitely more expensive than a FAST system because of the overall cost of parts, but you can simply plug everything in and its done.

Cls-chicago- Do a simple google products search and you will find your prices quickly ;)

[QC97Z]

Sounds like the EFI Connection setup might just be for me. Unfortunately, a lot more money will be dumped into this than I thought, but that comes with the territory I guess.
Even with EFI Connection, I still need an injector driver box, like acceleronics, to run low-impedance injectors, right?

[Fire67]

You are correct. But, its the only way to get a setup that is 100% returnable to stock. Plus you will be able to run a 2 or 3bar OS in true speed density. This makes for a much more tuneable setup than is possible with the stock ECU.