Need advice 700r4 vs. 4l60e ls swap into 93 z

**bustedassz28** · 10-20-2015, 02:19 PM

Ok, so as some of you may know i blew up the old lt1 and i'm going the ls route now. Heres my situation:

I have a good 700r4 or 4l60 not sure ( looks like a 700) i know 93 was the bastard year, and it has an edge 3600 stall already, with clean fluid and shifts fine, although it could use a shift kit

i also have a 4l60 e which came with my new ls motor, harness and ecm out of a 2002 tahoe 4x4 which needs to be taken apart and have a longer output shaft installed as well as buy an f body tail shaft, trans shop said $250 for everything.

So, what would you do?

Use the 700 or 4l60e?

Which one is better?

If you say the 4l60e -- should i get the new flexplate and bushing deal i've read about to adapt the stall to the ls motor or is this a cheesy way of doing it?

Just sell my stall and buy the correct one?

Sorry for all the questions but money's tight and i don't want to spend foolishly, especially since i didn't plan on doing this now, as always input is much appreciated, thx guys. @Cahall

**Camaro96** · 10-20-2015, 04:17 PM

I will address your question about the difference between 4L60E and 700R4.

The major difference is the 4L60E is computer controlled and the 700R4 is not. There hard parts our for the most part the same. The torque converter is different as well.

There is a difference between a 4L60E behind an LTX and LSX. I believe the enterals are different and I am not sure if the LTX transmission will bolt up to LSX.

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**bustedassz28** · 10-20-2015, 05:01 PM

Hmmm, i thought it bolted up minus one bell housing hole and i could use a different flexplate with a spacer bushing, if i were to use the 700 stall speed, at least thats what i thought i read....

**jaysz2893** · 10-20-2015, 05:06 PM

700r4. Bolts right in to a 93, no computer needed. Perfectly good transmission, can be built strong when needed. Call on Frank Cahall for all the 700r4/4L60 info you could ever want.

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***popo8*** · 10-20-2015, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by jaysz2893

700r4. Bolts right in to a 93, no computer needed. Perfectly good transmission, can be built strong when needed. Call on Frank Cahall for all the 700r4/4L60 info you could ever want.

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@Cahall

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**CPT** · 10-20-2015, 06:41 PM

What are you using for induction on the LS? If you're going traditional front facing throttle body, then you won't have any way to accommodate the 700 / 4L60 throttle valve cable. While Bowtie Overdrives offers a bracket / pivot kit, the jury is still out on how well they work. The cable adjustment and geometry are crucial for transmission life.

Yes, the 700 / 4L60 will bolt to the LS if leaving out 1 bell bolt but the converter holes won't line up with the LS flexplate holes. The LT uses an SAE circle and the LS uses a metric circle.

$250 is a decent price to swap the output shaft.

Sell the Edge and invest in a quality converter.

The 4L60E will be "tunable" through the PCM. Getting shift points correct with the 700 / 4L60 is a little more messy because it requires crawling under the car and pulling the governor. Getting the governor cap off and on with the trans in the car can be a PITA.

Both the 700 / 4L60 and 4L60E are equal in strength.

**bustedassz28** · 10-20-2015, 07:31 PM

Thanks, all my questions were answered! So since I have to buy a new stall, any recommendations? Brand / stall rpm? It's a street strip car, drivetrain is stock for now, 4:11 gears tho, I really liked the edge 3600.....

**bustedassz28** · 10-20-2015, 07:33 PM

Btw, it's eventually gonna be a stock internal, single junkyard turbo setup mostly for strip, but il still drive to work here and there, thx again

**CPT** · 10-20-2015, 09:38 PM

As far as converter manufacturer recommendation goes, I'll share some things we've been researching more lately. Converters should be judged on price, performance, and reliability. So, which manufacturer has the best of all those keys? Let's start with how we gather the data we use. A converters efficiency can be checked 2 ways. We datalog dragstrip runs when the customers have the capability. This shows actual converter slip. The other way that we've been using quite a bit more lately is using a chassis dyno. Since we've been doing more transmission work for high end shops that are equipped with chassis dynoes, we now have the luxury of learning how a certain manufacturers converter acts.
The way we confirm this on a chassis dyno is to see how much horsepower is gained when the converter is locked vs what it makes unlocked. "Stall" is actually slip. That slip is supposed to be minimalized once the converter gets above it's rated stall. An inefficient converter will continue to slip throughout the rest of the RPM range though. These converters are easy to identify as these are the one's that will run quicker / faster in the quarter mile with the converter forced to lock at WOT. The same results show on the dyno. If the vehicle picks up huge power with the converter locked, it's a sure sign of an inefficient converter.
There is one specific design converter that is very well known for being extremely inefficient on the top end. These are the 4 cylinder S-10 style converters like Edge, Revmax, PTC, and many others use. These are easy to identify because all of them have a steel ring bolted / welded to the original mounting pads so they will bolt to an LT or LS flexplate. We've seen as much as 25% slip on the top end with some of the Edge examples of these converters. This efficiency issue is made even more pronounced because these converters are notorious for ballooning. Ballooning means the converter grows. When it grows, it gains internal clearance which makes it even more inefficient. Converter ballooning can also contribute to engine thrust bearing wear or transmission pump damage. As a reference, a quality converter will have somewhere around 5% slip WITHOUT being forced into lock up. Some of the most efficient converters are Protorque, Yank, Circle D, and Vigilante. There may be others that I'm not familiar with or haven't had a chance to test.
I have my "cut and cleans" done by a local converter shop that I used to work at. This has also given me the luxury of seeing how certain manufacturers build their converters and what is upgraded in them. The sad part is, the Edge converters have NO upgrades. It appears as though they never even get cut apart. They're just a stock S-10 converter that was never meant for no more than 100 horsepower. No needle bearings to replace thrust washers, no furnace brazing, no upgraded sprags...Nothing.
Now, let's talk about reliability. From my personal experience, we've seen the best reliability from Protorque. I've been a distributor of theirs for 11 years and have never had a failure out of the hundreds I've sold. We've seen a rise in the failure rate with the Vigilantes in the past few years. This is a shame because when they work, they work well. We have many customers having great success with Yank converters. I will say that I was slightly baffled by a recent Yank experience though. We had a vehicle come in that the customer had installed a new Yank in a couple months previous. I took the converter to have it "cut and cleaned" and got a call from the shop after it was cut. Apparently the converter was built with a chunk missing out of the stator. This would cause the converter to have less stall. I had my guy put a good stator in it when he reassembled it and the customer reported that it felt like a much better converter and picked up a couple 100 RPM stall. I can't condemn a company because of one issue though. Maybe Dave was just having a bad day. We have customers reporting great success with Circle D converters as well. We noticed a while ago that we were getting converter clutch complaints from some customers who had been running them for a while. These complaints were traced back to severely worn pump stator / input shaft busings. Having our first Circle D cut apart helped identify what was causing this. The way Circle D does their bearings puts more side load on the input shafts of the trans. This side load eats the bushings up. As you might imagine, the S-10 style converters are plagued with reliability issues. We see many Edge converters wipe 4L60E pumps out because the ballooning pushes the pump rotor into the pump cover.
Now, to be fair to PTC, I will say that I only mentioned them because I know they use the S-10 cores. I've never had one cut nor have I tested any. I only mentioned them because the issue with that style converter seems to be the same no matter what the manufacturer. I will also add that PTC build a great non lock up 2 or 3 speed converter. From what I understand, both Edge and PTC build billet 4L60E converters that aren't based on the s-10 cores.

**firebird_1995** · 10-20-2015, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by bustedassz28

Thanks, all my questions were answered! So since I have to buy a new stall, any recommendations? Brand / stall rpm? It's a street strip car, drivetrain is stock for now, 4:11 gears tho, I really liked the edge 3600.....

If you decide to sell the edge converter, let me know. Been very pleased with mine with 8% slip @650 rwhp in my 80e.