Rebuilt by a UTI Student... why did I not expect this.

[Cross]

So when I bought the Donor Car (1996 Z28) the kid worked at Volvo, was a nice guy really but said the car has sat for almost a year. He had a ton of rec's proof of the work he did etc.

It was supposed to be a rebuilt LT4 he did as a project while going to school.

When I got it the car was fine but after a week it started to blow smoke when I would hit the gas hard... I then took it out of the car and put it in the TA and along the way found a bad rotor, bad coil, bad Opti, Bad O2 grounding to the headers.

So I figured that was probably it... wrong. Its still blowing smoke it just no longer smells like gas.... great.

So I am guessing rings, I will try to get a leak down done but I do not have the tools to do so currently.

But frankly I am sure even though I wrote off everything else as it sitting that it probably is going to give me more issues... the seller said call him anytime... he ignores my questions so I can try to locate any problem area's...

I could just take it apart but honestly I have another project right now and I do not have time for this. I could let go of the other project but at this point I am not sure I want too.

Maybe anyone else has some idea's.

Its really under hard accel but there is some smoke very faint while running when just started if your outside watching. I have not driven behind it yet so I can not comment further... but it does not always smoke while idling so it may just be start up.

I really just do not want to put a lot of money and time into it when I would pref to get say a 355 bottom end and just swap my heads and IM over. I could then take the bottom end and sell the cam in it and the rest give to a good friend to help with his rebuild project for a 383.

I guess I am rambling now but frankly after all this work to still be going through this... its annoying. But I guess I should have expected it, every UTI Grad I know needs me to change everything from belts to there clutches and do motor swap's for them...

---VIDEO--- (Hope you all like my legs :jest: oh and the kid heard it the first time!)
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/CrossGT6/94%20Formula%20WS6/th_SNC11398.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/CrossGT6/94%20Formula%20WS6/?action=view&current=SNC11398.flv)

---Video from Today... it goes from looking like fuel to again looking like oil.....---
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/CrossGT6/94%20Formula%20WS6/th_SNC11399.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/CrossGT6/94%20Formula%20WS6/?action=view&current=SNC11399.flv)

[Biggin'89]

How many miles are on the motor?

It could be a number of things.... Synthetic oil too early, washed rings from the fuel, rings not fully seated yet...

If it just gives a puff of smoke at startup i wouldn't worry about it. Just drive it (nicely) for a bit and see what happens.

[Cross]

No I have little if anything at start up you have to be behind the car outside to see it. But if I nail the gas... I could kill a lot of bugs... maybe hide my get away from the cops... yeah its more then a puff.

motor has no more then 3000 miles on it probably around 2200 or so.

[cls-chicago]

im a uti graduate.

[1badz]

[quote=Cross;20098]But if I nail the gas... I could kill a lot of bugs... maybe hide my get away from the cops...quote]



LOL

My car does the same thing (with my o2's unplugged). It's a rich condition and I bet yours is the same. Are you throwing any codes?

[Cross]

No Codes at all and it def smells like gas and oil but not to much like gas. It used to make you cry and really blow smoke.

I will get a video today.

[cls-chicago]

im a uti graduate.
.

[IronOutlaw]

Man I hate to heard that after all you went through to get the car running. My car does the same thing though, smoking bad at w.o.t. and i think its oil to, but its a 128000 mile motor thats been beat on its whole life.

Have you checked to see if the pcv valve is functioning correctly. Ive heard they can cause you to burn oil if they arent working.

[Cross]

I have a new PCV and I have breathers and I put the summit PCV type valve on the line from the passenger VC to the TB.

I too am very upset over all of this... but I want to move forward.

I have access to a stock motor with tranny for about 600.00 they have about 100k on them and they ran fine before they were taken out.

But I want my motor... so I am thinking about a few options. However I need to know where I can buy new rings, what I should be using and possibly some better pistons and rods if need be but at least new gaskets, and everything else... since my bottom end was supposedly gone through I should not have to change those things but if I am going to replace the rings I might as well do everything else too.... (I have done many different projects and builds but never rebuilt a motor/bottom end just replaced and made parts to mount new things such as Super Chargers etc... this probably is not as hard as I expect but then the first time you do anything it seems bigger then it is... and you just want some advice and guidance from those who have been here before)

Just need to find the parts.

[Cross]

.
Do you want me to say something too you? Is it supposed to mean something to me?

I have a roommate and close friend who is a UTI Grad as well as two other friends. I spoke from experience, is there something your trying to say or imply by mentioning your a UTI grad?

[Cross]

I am sure many guys who actually build and play have gone there and gotten somewhere but after 3 so far and one paying to have his belts changed on a V6 Mazda, another needed help doing his clutch and the last who I have had to help do a clutch, do a motor swap and so much more.... I am sorry but my personal opinion has been formed from these experiences.

Give them something already out of the car and they might be useful... ask them to troubleshoot or get dirty... and its like asking my wife to work on a car... she might break a nail/get dirty.

[cls-chicago]

I graduated from the Chicago area UTI also, I am no idiot.

[rebuilt]

No one said that u were. Just saying U went to UTI did nothing to help diagnose the original posters issue.

[Adam]

Let's help resolve the issue instead of have a debate about UTI. From what I learned at UTI from the short time I was there is that you get what you put in. Good and bad students can come out of there like any field.

[BluBeaSSt]

i would baby it for awhile...i mean its barely even broke in. Is there any kind of tune or anything on it? It could just be dumping fuel

[cls-chicago]

Let's help resolve the issue instead of have a debate about UTI. From what I learned at UTI from the short time I was there is that you get what you put in. Good and bad students can come out of there like any field.


I share the same thoughts.

its 100% true.

[Cross]

Yet you came in here to do what? Or did you not read what I said? *shakes head*

Anyway,
Yes it has a MadTuner Tune on it. I also put in new O2's when I did everything. Not sure what to make of it but here is the video... dangit its still uploading sorry my DSL Connection went out then came back 20 min later gotta start over yay lol.

[MeanGreen94Z]

new valve seals? worth a shot but that would typically give you a puff on startup tho...

[Cross]

Its half way done loading I will put the video on the front page. I of course started it so it could warm up alittle but there was no smoke this time on start up.

I did a lower rev then a few high revs. Tell me what you think, I am still thinking rings.

[MeanGreen94Z]

probably so...try running a non detergent 30w oil in it for a few hundred miles

[Cross]

non-detergent 30w, any recommendations? Like Rotella Shell I believe is one right?

Also should I be worried about high oil pressure with that I am already close to 80PSI at start up and this is 5w30 that I was running just for a 100 miles or so with the swap then flushing and moving on to 10w30. (Was actually going to do the flush right now)

[MeanGreen94Z]

wow...thats a bit of pressure... your supposed to use a non detergent oil for breakin so you get teh best ring seat. just look for any brands

[Z28pr0jekt]

yea thats definitely fuel not oil from that vid... if the rings weren't seated yet then it would be a plume of whitish smoke.

get a wideband or datalog the thing and see what it's doing, make sure its tuned for the right injectors

[1badz]

saw the vid... smokes like my dads deisel truck at WOT :D

That seriously looks like a fuel issue, i forgot to ask, are your o2's unplugged?

Try going back to the stock tune and see what happens. I wnet through a few tunes and so far the stock one works best (speed density here :D)

[Cross]

I will put in the stock ECU with the LT4 Knock Sensor and see what happens with a video.

I will also watch the ECU but I do not have a data cable just an Autoxray.

Guess another video will be up today.

And no the O2's are not unplugged. The after cat is deleted but the rest are plugged in. I will tell you the readings later today when I get done with the video and oil flush as well as replacing that damn oil level sensor as its got a slow leak out the end of the sensor itself.

[blknt18]

Maybe you should have got it from a wyotech grad. Jk had to throw that in there. I'd say too much fuel/rich. Maybe bad spark that isn't igniting the fuel. Check plugs, wires, etc. Idk just throwing that out there.

[Cross]

I replaced the Coil and Opti both with MSD Replacements. The wires are Taylor 8.5mm so I would hope it was good. I used NGK TR55's and they were new when I put the motor in the car last week or so.

I guess I could play with the timing once I have the O2 Readings. But first I will do a stock ECU run and go from there.

[Cross]

I started thinking and remembered when I was playing around I had an LSx MAF and 2 LTx Mafs... but I did not mark them. Now I have 2 other MAF's sitting here and they were both kinda dirty so I used the one that looked clean.... now I am starting to think maybe I am using the LSx MAF and its the cause of this rich condition maybe...

Could that be possible? What are the differences between them if any?

[Tyler Wheat]

Is there anybody in your area that is a reputable tuner? If so, I'd strap it up to the dyno and have them do a little tweaking with the tune. You can only get those mail-ordered tunes so close when its not a "cookie-cutter" swap. IMO they aren't even comparable to a good dyno tune when you're doing something that hasn't been done 1000 times.

/EDIT

I thought this was a 383 car. If you know of anyone who has datalogging software, I'd try and get that hooked up and make sure everything is in check. That car isn't running "fouled plug" rich. I'm sure its something a little more than that.

I'm clueless about the LSx MAF, so I'm no help there. I'm sure someone here knows a little about them, though. If they are different, you more than likely need to re-calibrate your MAF tables, or put one of the LTx ones back in would obviously be easier.

[Cross]

I know NicD is but it would take a lot to get him to tune. Seems my MadTune is just not getting the job done... He said if I put it on the dyno he would redo it but now I am not sure thats going to be enough.

[Cross]

Ok I just finished the oil change, changing out my oil level sensor and I put the AutoXray on it.

The O2's were def reading differently.
At 3825RPM
Right: 620mVolts
Left: 937mVolts

That was the highest I recorded a Rev. Limited Space.

However this video certainly looks different then the first... def looks like oil here.

So what do you think now?

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/CrossGT6/94%20Formula%20WS6/th_SNC11399.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/CrossGT6/94%20Formula%20WS6/?action=view&current=SNC11399.flv)

[Cross]

So no thoughts?

[Bones]

No I have little if anything at start up you have to be behind the car outside to see it. But if I nail the gas... I could kill a lot of bugs... maybe hide my get away from the cops... yeah its more then a puff.

motor has no more then 3000 miles on it probably around 2200 or so.


I had that issue at not such a serious case. I did a couple of things to eliminate my issue. I replaced the valve seals and switched from 5w30 syn Amsoil to 10w30 Mobil 1 syn. 5w30 was just too thin not too mention it was synthetic which can sneak past a lot of sealed areas. I did all of this when I did my cam, which made it convenient. Finding TDC is a blast let me tell ya!

If it's not doing it all the time, just when you punch it more than likely it's the valve seals. If the rings were shot you would get your problem more continuously.

[IronOutlaw]

Im not a mechanic by no means but i think the car runs to good for that to be all fuel. I think there is oil in there. It looks just like my dads truck that burns oil BAD and we're trying to figure out why. Its got 90000 miles on it and was driven easily by an old man. We're thinking maybe valve seals hopefully. Id try changing them if i were you before ripping the whole engine apart to change rings.

Is the car burning oil? Thats a sure fire way of how you would know. Drive a full tank of gas out of it and see if it uses any.

[Cross]

Hardly any at all. I had the oil leveling sensor leaking before so I can not be sure if it was burning it or dropping it as there was a leak there... I fixed it but...

However as for valve seals. I woudl pref it to be that or even head gaskets... but i doubt it. I am not that lucky...

I have been looking into what it would take to build this extra LT1 and t56 I have thats just fine but has 95k on it. I was thinking about building a 355 bottom end.

[Tyler Wheat]

Looking more like oil, but I would think if it were the valve seals, it'd be a little worse than that at start-up. The smoke definately looks a little more blue this time, though.

The oil doesn't have a fuel smell, does it? Checked any plugs? Coolant level in check at all times?

[Cross]

I am driving it to work and back today so I will check everything when I get home around 4:30pm.

[Cross]

No loss of oil I just checked after two days of driving and the coolant is full.... Have not gassed it recently but I am def burning through gas way to fast... WWWAAAYYY To fast.

[catchmyz]

pull the spark plugs, you'll know what your burning then.

[Cross]

I am going to replace the Right O2 this weekend, then check the plugs and also the guy who did the motor build is coming over to take a look with me as well as bring all the machine shop records.

Maybe we can figure something out, he seems to think the oil burning might be due to high oil pressure as the stock gauge claims 80 PSI when floored and 40 at idle when warm 60 when cold starting.
He thinks it might have been a HV Oil Pump even though he requested a Stock one. We shall see if that's a possible reason...

[Twisted Z]

Just seeing this.

That is the tune not the engine...but the tune can hurt it for sure!

[Cross]

But if its running that rich I would think as a default its safe... great and I was going to put it on the dyno to try and get the tune better....

[MeanGreen94Z]

rich causes cylinder washdown and can mess with the rings... get a tune man

[Adam]

If its a "false lean" condition that causing the excess fueling, do not run it any more than you have to. The excess fuel will wash the lubrication off the cylinder walls, destroying the rings, then dilute the oil to the point where you start hammering bearings.

[Cross]

I did get a tune, it just apparently was no where close....

[Cross]

Ok here is what I have found so far.

I have updated the AutoXray and we sat working on idea's and such. I am taking back my O2's shortly to try that but here is what we found.

The Left O2 seemed to change values with rpm increase, the right did not (As posted prior).
We swapped ECU's and got smoke still.

Now here is something weird that happened with Both ECU's. We started trying to come up with idea's and we had 2;
1) The FPU could have ripped inside. (Forcing it to push a lot more fuel) but we ruled this out because it was the one that was stock in the firebird as I left the firebird fuel rails and injectors in the car same with the camaro. The firebird did not have any fuel problems.
2) The Baro sensor.

This is where it got interesting, according to the AutoXray with the Tuned ECU we were at 4.46v. We unplugged it... 4.46v.... it never changed.
With the stock ECU 4.48v... Unplugged no change.
We then tested at the sensor and got the 5v ref and the ground. The sensor gives off 1.7v on the signal wire....
The ECU Pin gets that voltage but not constant... it seems to switch like its looking then its not as it goes to - voltage and creeps up to -10v. Then it reads again.

So what do you guys think now?

[Cross]

Both O2's have been replaced and both give readings now. The car still smokes but I guess I will go out for a ride and see what happens...

[Cross]

So with all the extra info no new idea's yet?

[Tyler Wheat]

So with all the extra info no new idea's yet?

I'm still gunning for tuning.

This is a 355 LT4 with a hotcam, right? No injectors or anything like that? Pretty much a fresh LT4 rebuild?

I'd schedule somewhere for a dyno tune if possible. I would think that you'd be set with the mail-order on a mild build like that, but who knows.

[Cross]

No it was not bored over this time. Machine shop cleaned, honed it etc but it was not taken over unfortunately.

I am trying to get in next weekend but honestly I would like to get rid of as much smoke as possible so its not an embarrassment.

[Cross]

Ok next monday car hits the dyno at 4:30. I will video it even though its going to fog the place out.

I will be embarrised but its the only way to do it. I am going to let the tuner know to expect the results asap.

[Cross]

Alright I have the new gaskets for the timing cover and everything else... i am going to see if its just the water pump one or more then that we shall see.

Dyno day is Monday.... I just hope it goes well.

I will let you all know but playing with it today under a load it starts to smoke at 3k floored or not...

[Cross]

Alright the car missed the Dyno today has to go Wednesday. I was replacing the front Timing Cover Water Pump Shaft Seal and it went wrong the first time... I decided to put on my new taylor wires too and one needed to be fixed.

I then thought that if this is a fuel issue and I have an MSD Opti... why not avance the timing some... So I did about 1.5 to 2 Turns. I don't want to go any further until I can get info on just how many degrees per turn it is.

Either way though the car starts right up, really nice and smooth and when I took it out I have not ben scared of that car for a long time. I was happy as hell just a few minutes ago... but there is still smoke.... does not seem as bad but still a good cloud....

Tomorrow a new video right when I get home without shutting the car off... we shall see just what it looks like then....

So far my oil leak around the water pump seal seems to be gone... I hope I did it well.

While I am still all tingly and happy she even sounded meaner.